Episode 272 – Unstoppable Integrative Presence Program Creator with Tünde Erdös

Unstoppable Mindset

I have had the opportunity to meet with many coaches and leadership experts on Unstoppable Mindset. Tünde Erdös in some ways takes these kinds of discussions to a new level. She coaches, but she also has conducted scientific research on some of the aspects of coaching such as Presence. She describes herself as a “scholar and practitioner”. During our time in this episode Tünde discusses presence, what it is and the value of each of us more actively incorporating it in our lives. She offers insights into how practicing better presence and making better choices will help leaders and, in fact, all of us to live better and be more effective. About the Guest: Tünde Erdös PhD in Business and Organizational Management Ashridge MSc. in Executive Coaching, Group and Team Coaching Ashridge PgDip. in Coaching and Organizational Supervision ICF MCC, EMCC Master Practitioner For Tünde: leadership is coaching. And, coaching is leadership. Yet, neither is a profession, not even a vocation, but a pro-vocation. Tünde’s pro-vocation is: inviting leaders and coaches to generate social impact that makes meaning beyond the ‘me business’. Because: both leadership and coaching are social impact instruments. So, she probes: What is the legacy we as leaders and coaches are leaving behind – maybe aware that we are humans in a first place? How are we ensuring that we are at our best in the instrumental roles we embody? How are we making use of the trust that we receive as a gift from those that we want to be at their best too? Tünde is the founder of Integrative Presence, an ICF accredited coach-leader online-offline deep experiential learning set. That program is based on her internationally acclaimed research which received a Harvard Grant from Institute of Coaching, McLean’s Hospital, a Harvard Medical School Associate for its innovative research design using artificial intelligence and human interactions to measure outcomes. Tünde enjoys role-modelling social impact. She produced the coaching documentary ‘The Light and Shadow of Coaching – In and Beyond Organizations’. The donations fund coach training to empower women in Kenya. The idea is to support women in becoming more entrepreneurial in their communities. For her achievements as an executive coach and social impact activist through coaching, Tünde received the ICF Impact Award through Coaching 2023. Tünde has authored three books and one book chapter contribution so far, published in international peer-reviewed scientific journals and non-scientific magazines. She is a scholar and practitioner inspired to promote best practice in learning development as well as coaching in, for and with organizations. In doing so, she takes responsibility in developing the profession as a whole. Ways to connect with Tünde: www.integrative-presence.com www.tuendeerdoes.com www.coachingdocu.com Podcast site: https://shows.acast.com/6425e12b4362ac0011921e1f/episodes Social media link:

https://www.linkedin.com/in/tündeerdös/ About the Host: Michael Hingson is a New York Times best-selling author, international lecturer, and Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe. Michael, blind since birth, survived the 9/11 attacks with the help of his guide dog Roselle. This story is the subject of his best-selling book, Thunder Dog. Michael gives over 100 presentations around the world each year speaking to influential groups such as Exxon Mobile, AT&T, Federal Express, Scripps College, Rutgers University, Children’s Hospital, and the American Red Cross just to name a few. He is Ambassador for the National Braille Literacy Campaign for the National Federation of the Blind and also serves as Ambassador for the American Humane Association’s 2012 Hero Dog Awards. https://michaelhingson.com https://www.facebook.com/michael.hingson.author.speaker/ https://twitter.com/mhingson https://www.youtube.com/user/mhingson https://www.linkedin.com/in/michaelhingson/ accessiBe Links https://accessibe.com/ https://www.youtube.com/c/accessiBe https://www.linkedin.com/company/accessibe/mycompany/ https://www.facebook.com/accessibe/ Thanks for listening! Thanks so much for listening to our podcast! If you enjoyed this episode and think that others could benefit from listening, please share it using the social media buttons on this page. Do you have some feedback or questions about this episode? Leave a comment in the section below! Subscribe to the podcast If you would like to get automatic updates of new podcast episodes, you can subscribe to the podcast on Apple Podcasts or Stitcher. You can subscribe in your favorite podcast app. You can also support our podcast through our tip jar https://tips.pinecast.com/jar/unstoppable-mindset . Leave us an Apple Podcasts review Ratings and reviews from our listeners are extremely valuable to us and greatly appreciated. They help our podcast rank higher on Apple Podcasts, which exposes our show to more awesome listeners like you. If you have a minute, please leave an honest review on Apple Podcasts. Transcription Notes: Michael Hingson ** 00:00 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us. Michael Hingson ** 01:21 Well, hello and welcome to another episode of unstoppable mindset where inclusion diversity in the unexpected. Me today, we get to play with unexpected a little bit and other things like that. Part of the first incidence of unexpected in this episode is that our guest, Tünde Erdös is from Austria, little ways away from where I live, but with technology, which I love to pick on anyway, and I hope it doesn't rebel during this podcast, but with technology, everything happens immediately. So it's just like Tünde is next door or in the same room, and that's kind of cool. So she has a lot to talk about, and we're going to make this a fun episode, as I tell people, the only hard and fast rule about unstoppable mindset is we have to have fun, and that means you all as listeners, have to have fun too. So if you're ever not, I want to hear about it. And if you are, I want to hear about that too. Well. Anyway, Tünde I want to welcome you to unstoppable mindset, and thank you for being here with us today. Tünde Erdös ** 02:30 Thank you very much, Michael. So I was, I was so just on the on the fun side of it. It was so interesting that you said it's unexpected that, because I was like, Wait a second, what would you expect where I should be, and what should be the expected about me, when actually, all life is about unexpected. So thank you very much for introducing fun, and it sounds like energy. And I wanted to say something about a little bit like to contextualize the technological thing that you addressed, because people cannot see potentially, or can can just hear us. And I wanted to give a little bit of context I am sitting in, in sort of a dining room. And I do have a candle lit for tonight, for us, Michael and for our audience. So there is this candle, which is in crystal Shelley's, and I'm looking at it right now in order, as you know, as something that connects me with the world. The technology is also doing, but in a different way. And this, this candle is is doing this connection for me in a very special way, because it's the flame in it is dancing so nicely. Although there is no no air current here, there's nothing, or, I think there is no intercurrent, but it's dancing so nicely that this is how I would like to have our conversation today, dancing with you and dancing with the audience and having fun along the way. Michael Hingson ** 04:13 Well, that's cool. Well, since we are recording this and video is on, can you'll know better than I will. People see the candle. I'm Tünde Erdös ** 04:22 going to put it in a place that people can see it. Yes, Michael Hingson ** 04:27 cool. Well, would you please start by telling us a little bit about kind of the early Tünde, growing up and all that sort of stuff. Tünde Erdös ** 04:39 Oh, Ouch. That hurts. This. Michael Hingson ** 04:47 It's good to get to know you Tünde Erdös ** 04:50 the early Tünde. The early Tünde is somebody, and I happen to have a picture of me just also to my left. I. I don't know why I'm having this picture. It's I was, I was, I think I am two years old, about, like one and a half or something or two ish and and I keep this image next to me because, for because, for a good reason, because I want to be reminded of that young me versus this adult person that I think I am. And when I'm looking at that image, what comes to my mind is I'm somebody that loves digging into dirt. And actually I'm very kind of like full of dirt in this picture. And I remember that my mother wanted to take this picture of me, and I didn't like that idea of a picture being taken of me, and I was reprimanded. And actually, I think I feel a little bit ashamed because I was putting up a tent for my womb, and she didn't like it. And I'm wearing a hat, which I normally do, and And tonight, I'm not wearing a hat. But actually, even when I was young, I was very much in love with wearing, you know, head covers, like I'm wearing a hood or something. And as an adult, I'm doing the same. I usually wear hats, you know. And I still love being like, having all my my my fingers in every pie sort of thing in that I love complexity, and I love playing with stuff that is not, not easy to deal with, uh, sort of so that's actually who I used to be, and I'm still, still am I think, Michael Hingson ** 06:43 well, you, you've done a lot, you went through school, you went to college, yeah, and you have a PhD, Tünde Erdös ** 06:51 yeah. Oh, that's a long journey. Oh, bet Michael Hingson ** 06:54 it was anything you want to tell us about that part of that journey and how that's helped you become who you are today. Tünde Erdös ** 07:04 Well, you know, a PhD was never on my agenda. Actually, I wanted to be an artist. I wanted to become an artist because I loved drawing, and I seemed to be very good without attending school or going to any artistic schools, but I happen to have kind of like, yeah, know how to have this natural way of drawing. And I was earning my pocket money with this and and my parents didn't like the idea of me becoming an artist, because they said, We don't want you to end up in the in the streets. So because I I happened to be a good girl, and I always kind of like, you know, I had my own way of doing things, but then my parents taught me, well, be reasonable, be do this, go to school, go to college, go to university, go do that, other things, because you're intelligent, you've got a brain. And I did that, but and I started with law, because I was graduating from high school, and then in Europe, we had Latin back. It was like 1994 and and I loved Latin, and I loved the language, and they the Roman way of life and philosophy and and all that stuff, all that is kind of like ancient and, and almost incomprehensible and, and, and so I said, okay, because I'm good at Latvian and kind of like I'm I'm very logical. So, so that's what I was told, that I was so to go and study law, and I did until and the second half of my studies, I was invited by a criminal lawyer to go and and help him interpret in a small cell, because he had a defendant, And he was dealing with black papers. And that guy was speaking French only, and because I speak a few languages, he asked me, Would you be happy to interpret for me in that cell? And then I we went into that cell, and it was so tiny I couldn't even sit down, because it was just a small table, and they were facing each other. They were sitting facing each other, and I had to stand upright because there was no place. And then they were yelling at each other in that small cell. That kind of like, you know, it came, I was like, as a realization, this, is this what then I'm supposed to do when I'm when I'm in that profession? Is this what law is about, that I just Is this how I'm going to treat people? Is this is what is this about? And I really had a sort of soul crash that that made me kind of like question the the purpose of what I was doing. And I remember that I went home. Right? And my legs were shaking because I needed to vow to my dad, Dad, I'm not gonna pursue this career. This is not me. I cannot do this. And I was having very good grades. So I should have succeeded very nicely, because I was already in my the second half of the studies. But then I needed to go home, you know, to tell Dad, no, Dad, this is not for me. So that's a little bit like a bit me. And then it's that sort of experience continued on and on because I, I was, I still kept being extrinsically motivated in what I chose to do, because the next thing was my girlfriend was coming and saying, okay, Tinder, if, if the law is the thing that you believe is not meant for you, then you are so good with languages, why don't you do and study translation and interpreting, which I did again, yeah, and I finished that, And I was then, and I received a scholarship, and then I went to Brussels, and I was interpreting simultaneously for the European Union, and at the parliament, a European Parliament, and sitting in a booth, and, you know, transporting ideas from one language into the other until, until the moment when I got bored. I really got bored with it, because I thought, like, okay, so I can do this now, and it was no more exciting. And then I realized, okay, I can do this, and I'm good, and I learned it and their skills. Is all good, but I didn't feel fulfilled. And then I remember that by then, I had practiced simultaneous interpreting for 10 years, and I was earning very well, so I couldn't complain, yeah. But then I went home and said to my husband, I think we need to do something about this, because I'm missing something in my life. And and he said, You know what you will look will sit down for for a while. Will take one month I do some research on my own, and you'll do some research on your own, and then we'll sit together again, and we'll see what we have found each and then we'll kind of like talk about this. Michael Hingson ** 12:13 What was your husband doing at the time? Tünde Erdös ** 12:16 He's an architect, okay? And a physical engineer, like, into acoustics, and Michael Hingson ** 12:21 then a creative guy, a Tünde Erdös ** 12:23 very creative guy, yes, and so am I, but I never really allowed myself to be one. So, so then this is how actually the idea came that, why don't you do he found coaching for me and I found coaching for myself. The only difference was that I wanted to go to a different place for the education that I should receive, to get educated and and I was more into like, you know this, yeah, I remember back. And then I wanted to reconnect with French. And like to always stay in touch with French and speak French a lot, because I really love the language, I love the people, I love the country, and I didn't want to lose touch with with the language. And then he came and said, No, you know what? This is, not you. You know coaching is good, so great that we are on the same page with each other, so that he said, It's good that I seem to know you well enough, he said, back and then, and that you know you seem to know yourself well enough. And then he, then he, kind of like we had this talk around, like, why not do the why not go to INSEAD, which is sort of the best place to be, kind of like it's very famous and highly reputed, at least in Europe and in Asia and and he said, No, look, this is too glossy for you. This is not you. You know what? I found something else in Great Britain. And it's like, it's very clear what they offer. And they, this is not glossy. It's down to earth. And this is who you are. You are down to earth. You are clear. You want to kind of like you really understand things. You want to work tactically. You want to be in the midst of it. You want to have this experience. You're you're not somebody that's glossy. You don't do that stuff. So I got persuaded. But I think it was a very good thing that he persuaded me to go to a business school in the UK, because that's where I really started reconnecting with my creative side. And then that's where it all started up again, actually, like more into the intrinsic motivational area where I really started doing stuff that I love doing, but I was still up there with a PhD because I needed to do my masters. And then I go, went to went on to do supervision, and then I was talking to my supervisor, and I said, What's in. Me next, because it's so much fun to learn and and I really enjoyed the self reflective bit, you know, to learn and discover myself and discover the world. And it feel like, oh, there's so much out there that I do not know. And it's not just a few skills that you learn in coaching. It's really a lot more complex. And it's, it's kind of really it's not just black and white, it's not just all good coaching. Is not just all good it has got its shadow sides. So what can I do? And and at the same time, something happened in my life. I was sitting with a client of mine, and we had a moment of serendipity together, because very early on in the coaching engagement, she said to me, Tunde, why are you why you're saying yes, you're saying yes to me, but why is your body moving backwards? And I was like, what was I doing? So there was a moment where she kind of like noticed something that I had not been aware of. And I must wow that at that moment when she when she had that, she noticed that bit about me. I had accolades like galore. I was ICF MCC accredited at master level. I had my masters, blah, blah, blah, so I I should have, kind of like, you know, this expectation. I should have noticed what my client was noticing, but I didn't. And then it was also crucial. The moment was crucial because she wanted to leave the coaching engagement. And kind of like felt like shameful. It was a moment of shame and doubt and kind of like, what is going on here, and why do I not know? What is it that that that I still need to discover, and how can I actually give back? So in all this moment of shame, I kind I remember that I asked her to, can you, can you just stay for another session so that we can reflect our relationship a bit? Because I would really love to understand what might have gone not so well for you that you feel like you can't trust this process anymore, because she said that she couldn't trust this she didn't know what to trust, because there was so much incongruence between the spoken words and and, and the non spoken words that she was just confused. And that's when, when I got sensitized to the to this phenomenon of synchronicity, nonverbal synchronicity, and how nonverbal synchronicity is more important than than what we speak, the content of what we say, and all the knowledge and all the blah, blah, you know, it kind of it wasn't more. And then I wanted to know, what do we know about this in coaching, and I found that it's a field, it's a blank page that nobody has looked into, nonverbal synchrony in the field. But psychotherapy had done so, and developmental psychology had done so, and other fields had done and physics had done so. So of course, that was the playing field for me. Like, how can I kind of, like, pull up my sleeves and dig in the dirty things of figuring out how relevant nonverbal synchrony is for our practice? And this is how I had come to to doing a PhD. So it was not something that I wanted to do. It was something that had emerged through a critical moment in in my practice. Well, Michael Hingson ** 18:31 what? So what was the answer to her question about why you were moving backwards, even though you weren't verbally saying that? Tünde Erdös ** 18:41 Oh, wow. That's like, can you be patient, Michael? Because that's another story. It's, you know, what we figured out together was that when I got hired, and maybe I would say a little bit about the context of the client as well. So that client was a female client, and she received, she was supposed to receive coaching, because the CEO wanted her to be represented on board level, and the board back. And then it was a hydro company. So it was an engineering company, the hydro business, energy production and so and it was all male dominated, and the CEO had this idea to kind of like, for whatever reason, I don't want to judge anything. But yeah, this, this engineer, this female engineer, was supposed to be kind of like, supposed to level up and be represented at word level. And she, he wanted her to receive coaching, to to be ready for that that that role, and to be assertive, and to for that position to be filled successfully, for her and for the others and for the organization, of course. And I remember that when I was hired and we. Had this hiring engagement that the, I mean, we figured it out post mortem, right? So it was, I didn't realize that in the moment when, in the in the hiring moment, but what happened in that moment of hiring was that CEO was saying to me and pointing, kind of like with them, with his finger, saying, You better make this one work. And he was kind of like, you know when, when you have the index finger and you point at something, and it's kind of like to make it clear that something should happen with the index finger towards me. And I did not notice how my body was picking up on the pressure. Because for me, mentally, you know, cognitively, it was clear, of course, well, like, I'll do my best. I mean, of course. I mean, there's no guarantees, but of course, like, I'm here to support and the client and the organization, and I wouldn't be sitting here if I didn't feel that I could do the job. So was Michael Hingson ** 21:01 the finger pointing an attempt at kind of intimidating. It felt Tünde Erdös ** 21:06 like and, and my body picked it up as such, got it, okay, 21:11 yeah. And Tünde Erdös ** 21:13 then I went back to notice that, kind of like when we that we that the body picks up on everything around us, like the the impulses that we received from the environment. The body is is the best instrument that will collect information before the brain can ever process anything. So it's the body doesn't lie. It will not lie, and it will be our most reliable instrument to tell us how we are really doing and that. And I noticed about beside that, I wasn't paying attention to that wisdom, and I was too much in my in my head, you know, I was like, cognitively, yeah, sure, so not for almost forgetting about this element of we are lodged in our body, and it's the senses that actually drive our cognition, first our perception and then our cognition, and then emotions. And I needed to reconnect with this and how, if we are disconnected the body and the mind, how that will show, and that the body will not lie, and and this pressure that was lodged and picked up, which I kind of like did not pay attention to, would show in critical moments, and it would it take me unawares and how important it is to to not just think about what the mind and the mental the processes that happen to us, but what else is there that shapes our being there and and and being in relationship with other people? Because it's this, this, this thing of non verbal synchrony just doesn't just apply to coaching, it applies to any interaction, human interaction. So, yeah, that's what happened. So Michael Hingson ** 23:13 did that person then continue to have a coaching relationship with you. Did you guys work it out? Tünde Erdös ** 23:22 Yeah, uh huh, yeah, that's cool, and that's the fascinating thing, because the client didn't really want to go, she didn't want to leave, she just wanted to, kind of like it was her invitation to, can we just be more real? Can? And she was a better coach in that moment than I was. And I think that she picked up on this vulnerability that was I was bringing into the into the relationship. And it was that bit because she was also vulnerable. We had some sort of a parallel process, you know, she was with that expectation that the CEO was having of her to move up the board level. She was just equally vulnerable as I was, and I think it encouraged her to also be more real, and to to go and speak about this, but just accept it for what it is, and accept from the CEO that, oh, we want you to be there. And then, of course, as a soldier, you know, I'm gonna be, and I will be up, and I will, I will take that position, and no questions asked. So, so I think it was a serendipitous moment in how my vulnerability also enabled hers to successfully embark on her coaching journey and then embark on that position. So it's interesting, right? How things come about? Michael Hingson ** 24:41 How long ago did this happen? Tünde Erdös ** 24:45 Um, why are you asking the question? Just curious. Michael Hingson ** 24:51 Just curious. Just Tünde Erdös ** 24:52 curious. It what it happened? 2017, Michael Hingson ** 24:55 okay, so, so you've had a lot of coaching. Time since then, which is great, and you've been able to put that in perspective and obviously learn from it and move forward with it, which is great. So you've been able to obviously have a lot of wisdom and and learn from what happened with that event. I mean, you you talk about it, and you tell a really, I think, important story that is important. I think that one of the things that we often think about with therapists, and I think with coaches, all too often, is they have all the answers. And the point is that oftentimes therapists, from a mental or medical standpoint, are supposed to have answers once they get all the information. But it's not a job of a coach to necessarily have the answers, but rather to guide the discussion so that the person being coached, gets the answers. And in your case, you both came up with answers. And I think that's so cool. Tünde Erdös ** 26:07 Oh yeah, I love how you're making sense of this with both. And you know what? This is, actually, what is, what matters that we it's like this flame here that's dancing, yeah, and this chalice, and this crystal Chalice, it's, it's kind of like there is an impulse, something in the air gives the this flame an impulse to dance around. And I think this is what is happening in coaching, too, that we kind of like are just around, we are there, and we give impulses, and then the client can dance around and with us like it's, it's, they are not alone, and I'm not alone. So the coach is not alone. The client is not alone. There is a context. There is more than just and and depending on the shell is, for instance, the shape of the shell is, it will be a different flame. It will be a different dance, and to be aware like, how we are co shaping each other. And that's not there. In our profession, we are talking about it a lot like, yeah, yeah, with but we are not really practicing it. This is not my perception, at least, and I hope that I'm not getting across as arrogant, but I'm not. It happened to me, okay? And I think it will happen to other people. How we believe that we are there, we are present, but we are not and that's also what we found in the research, then, that coaches are not present most of the time, or too present, sort of, Michael Hingson ** 27:36 yeah, I think all too often. Well, there's so many ways to say it. One, we take ourselves too seriously. Two, we we're not we're not necessarily in the present. We think we know everything and we don't. And and from from my perspective, when I when I hear people talking about someone who's an expert and so on, it's great to be able to be viewed as being an expert. That doesn't mean, though, that you have all the answers. And the best experts are the ones who themselves recognize I don't necessarily have all the answers, but I'm always learning and moving forward, and that's the most important thing I think, that any of us can do. Yeah, Tünde Erdös ** 28:17 yeah. And you know what? That reminds me also of an example that I make. May I give an example of another another storytelling bit with another client? Sure it's it's again around something that is unexpected, also, because you brought this unexpected up today that is somehow sticking with me. Michael, I remember one incident when I was sitting with a with another client in my in my office, and I live in a forest, and it's very calm here, and really very calm so and we do have neighbors, and the neighbors next door sort of like have a small farm with and they have chickens and pigs and roosters and etc. And I was sitting with with a client, and it was around lunchtime and and we have reached a stage where the client was reflecting for herself what she should be doing. So we had done this reflection process and just some discovery thing, and then she was about to reflect for herself what to do next, like this action taking bit like, what to do with all the discovery and insights, etc. And I remember sitting there in silence. And it was, you know, you do this crisp silence that is really unbearable, and it's kind of like, and I remember I was sitting there because I felt like, I'm not going to interrupt the client's process. When, suddenly, when, suddenly. But it felt really awkward, because it felt like, oh, oh, oh, shit, sorry for my friend. But I need to say that, because this is how it felt. It felt like how to interrupt the silence, and what would be the appropriate second and moment to interrupt the client's silence, because at one point, kind of like, started to be very long. So what happened? What happened was that the rooster next door started to do Michael Hingson ** 30:20 kiriki to crow, yeah, to crow. Tünde Erdös ** 30:23 But the rooster did it in a very special way, like it, it did it in a way as if his throat was, you know, cracking cups, you know, like in a very, very like it was fun as as if it would suffocate. And the client? I, no, no, it wasn't client. I burst out in laughter. It's always so funny. I thought, like, this is, this is really macabre. The whole thing that's macabre because, like, what is happening here, and just a sheer sound of the of the of the crowd, this, this crowing sound was so bizarre. And then then the client started laughing too, and bursting into laughter. And I said, Why are you laughing? And she said, You know what? You know what? I'm so happy that you started laughing because I wanted to laugh, but I was holding it back, because this rooster is so stupid, and you know what, I think I should be doing something stupid in my life for a change. And she meant by doing something stupid, like something crazy, daring, something that was out of the usual, out of the common, which would have been totally the opposite of what she was and how she would normally act and come up with action taking. So this is, again, for me, it's like, because you said, like, we don't know the answers. No, we don't, but something else in the context probably will give an impulse for for us to to have an answer, yeah. And that's what integrative presence is for me about like, how do we integrate other things than just the self or the other? Can we integrate more than than what we believe we should be doing and how like, because you said, like, we should be taking ourselves seriously. Yeah, because we are taking ourselves too seriously, if I had interrupted that silence because it felt awkward for me and I wouldn't have been able to hold the silence, this moment of serendipity wouldn't have emerged for the client. Michael Hingson ** 32:31 Do you think that it was awkward for her to be silent? Tünde Erdös ** 32:39 Wow, that's a good question. I do not know. We did not, we did not go into that. I think for her, it was just important that she could have this, she could have this moment of release realization. But it's a very, very good question. Michael, I don't know. I, you see, I could have asked that as well, like Michael Hingson ** 33:02 but the discomfort, the discomfort may have been much more with you than than with her. She may have been comfortable in the silence, but she obviously came to a conclusion when you started to laugh at the rooster, and then she did as well. So it it does go to show that, that sometimes, again, we don't necessarily have the answer to to say, but when we, when we do things like, as you describe it in the story, the rooster crowing, and you laughing, and then she laughing, that was a very powerful moment. Yeah, which is, which is cool, Tünde Erdös ** 33:43 yeah, I'm happy to you're saying because you're inspiring me to think further and say, like, if I what would have happened, because now we can take it further. What would have happened if I had noticed what you noticed, that maybe she might have felt uncomfortable in that moment. What if I had addressed that moment Michael Hingson ** 34:05 Right? See, or she may have been totally comfortable. And you know now it's, of course, too late to know that, but unless you were to go back and ask her, and she thought about it, but still, the answer is still that something occurred that caused you to react, that helped her react, and it definitely lightened the whole experience, which certainly was a good thing. Yeah, Tünde Erdös ** 34:34 it turned out to be like, yeah. It turned out to be helpful for the client. Yeah, that's yeah. So to take myself out of the equation, because it's not about us normally. Michael Hingson ** 34:45 Now, when did you get your PhD? 34:48 I got my PhD 2021 oh, Michael Hingson ** 34:52 what's recent, barely, and what was your PhD in Tünde Erdös ** 34:59 the. Umbrella. The umbrella concept is business and organization management got it. And then leadership development. And then, of course, this synchronicity, nonverbal synchronicity. Bit, Michael Hingson ** 35:14 when did you? When did you develop the idea of the integrative presence? Tünde Erdös ** 35:21 Ah, that was yet another thing like that. Was, it was such a painful moment like it's, it's interesting that you're bringing this topic up, because I was not, I was not expecting, so it was, it was unexpected, something unexpected again. So it was, I was not expecting to create a program around this. I was not expecting to do anything. I was just so much into the into this, into this topic, like, what is the point? Or how relevant is this for our practice, and how can it inform what we already know about presence and still do not know, or what we believe that we know, because there are a lot of theories about what presence should be on, and also to overcome a lot of resistance. Because I did meet a lot of resistance, people telling me, you cannot measure presence. I was told. I said, What a bet like, what a bet like. You can measure anything. It just depends on the take that you're, what take you are, what will be your take on this? How are you going to approach something? Everything is measurable. It just needs the right way of looking at things. So I didn't give up. So I wasn't I didn't listen to the people kind of like putting a resistance to this idea and also critiquing it heavily, which is part of doing research. So I very much acknowledge this, and it was also helpful, because it tested me like, where I am with my with my hypothesis, and where I was with my with my stance, on on into research. But then to answer your question is the data was there, and I must say, I really did a massive project, so something that nobody was expecting to see in the field. I could recruit 184 no 187 coach, client pairs, and I was accompanying their coaching process over time, over eight months, and I could get the coaches to video record their sessions, so that we could really get video data and to analyze the you know, this, the motion energy, the the nonverbal synchronicity between them over time. So I did process research. It was massive. It was really massive. And then I was and eventually, when I was done, and all went well, but there was a price that I paid. Talk about that as well, but when I had the data, I felt like and I we were about to to start measuring it. We couldn't measure it. We couldn't, we couldn't really it was, it was the, you know, it reminded me of the people who started questioning me, we will not be able to measure presence. And I was sitting at the feet of a mountain, and I could not make any sense. And I said, this is not possible. I have had the commitment of so many coaches, so many clients, so many people are watching this project because it had received a Harvard grant. So there was a big obligation to deliver, and I could not make sense of the data until I could take a step back Michael and I said, Wait a second, maybe I'm looking at it from the from the wrong perspective, with looking at it through the wrong lens. And then I contacted someone in Switzerland, at Berne University, a professor, and we're talking about because he was in the field of psychotherapy. I said, like harder. How do you measure nonverbal synchrony. And he said, Well, we do have a validated instrument for that, and if you like, we can, I will help you. You will need an education. You need to, kind of like get educated in how to use the instrument. But then I think that this is going to be able to measure the process data that you have collected, because normally, the way people look at the data, it's static. So you take a sample here at one point, another sample at another point and at an end point, and then you compare the data. But we had several data collection points to compare with each other over time. So and there was a complexity in what we were looking at, several, several factors that we were comparing with each other. So it was this realization, this moment of only whack a mole, do you know, overcome this, this moment of this pain. There, and the moment where I thought it, I got stopped, you know, like, please, I felt like, stop. There is a dead end. I've come to a dead end. There's there's no more. I cannot move forward with this, to release this, to let go and kind of like, just take a step back. It's like, no, it's possible I've just potentially not taken the right angle. So what's the take that it takes to be able to make sense of the data? So that's what I that was something unexpected again, and where I could I could understand again, how fragile, how fragile it is, how we perceive and conceive the world, that things should be this way, and it should be done this that way, when actually nothing should be done in any way. And the more flexible and open we can state the things, the more valuable the contribution is that we can make to the world. Does it make sense to you? Michael, I think Michael Hingson ** 41:05 so. Um, so you figured out how to measure the idea of presence, then to a degree. But so what is? What is integrative presence? Tünde Erdös ** 41:21 Well, yeah, exactly. Sorry. Can you see, like, I can, I can hijack everyone with my topic, because I am so passionate about it, yeah, so like, and then we found that in that presence is not what we thought it was, or it's more complex than what we thought it was, in that there are so many elements that play out. And I will be not practical, and I will, I will kind of like, give some examples. It whether or not we can be present. It depends on not just us. Like, let's say, in my field, it's the coaches. And so far, we have talked about presence as something that is inherent to the coach, and that's why we call it coaching presence. It's a coach's presence, but it's not the coach's presence alone. That's why we found that it's it integrates the client. We are so dependent on the other person. We are so dependent and we we kind of like react and respond in different ways to each client. So we get, we get influenced by the other person all the time, and that there is no fooling ourselves into believing that we can we are going to stay clean, that we are going to be a clean slate. This is a myth. This is full Clore, but this is what we want to believe, that if we go and meditate for five minutes, and then there we go into sessions, then we will be clean, and we will be cocooning with the client, and we will have the focus on the client. And this is myth. This is it's not happening because we could see that the coaches cannot do this. It's even if they kind of like at the beginning, they sort of, they sort of tune in, and the presence is there. It can change over time, and they get influenced by what, what? A lot without them becoming conscious of this, that's one thing that gets integrated, yes, Michael Hingson ** 43:30 yeah, go ahead. No, go ahead. Tünde Erdös ** 43:34 Another thing that gets integrated is also the environment, like the way I brought the rooster a story, yeah, there is a context. There is an immediate environment, like the room that we are in, the cars, that the room will have, whether or not somebody, somebody is tall or short, or like circumstances that are physical, that are that are that are inherent to the to the physical conditions of the place or the conditions of the person. All these things influence like, for example, I feel totally influenced by by how you cannot see me. I I constantly look at the at the screen to check, because I find myself, you know, like looking everywhere a little bit to be with myself, but then to check in with yourself is, can I see that you, you are with me? So there is this moment, there is we get influence, and I, and I feel fragile here because, because of, like, does it make sense what I'm saying, yeah, like, just just earlier I was saying, Does it make sense what I'm saying? Michael, you remember, like, I just just just a few seconds ago? So it's we are always so fragile, and we don't want to own it, this fragility, this vulnerability, that we get influenced by the physical space, by this immediate physicality, but that they. Was also a distant thing, like, more, uh, there's also a cultural bit, like, we are different cultures. I was I grew up in a different world than you did. You had different experiences. So that will shape your philosophy of life, how you view life, what is important for you, what is what is good, what is bad, what is ethical, what is unethical, so that will be different to how I see ethical and unethical and good and bad. Michael Hingson ** 45:29 The other part of that, though, is that how our philosophies are shaped, and our backgrounds and so on. That is all correct. But also, if we are honest and if we are looking at ourselves appropriately, it is also an evolutionary process. So meeting with you, talking with you, meeting with other people, and talking with other people can enhance, alter or shift some of our perspectives? Tünde Erdös ** 46:04 Absolutely, yes. And are we ready to allow this to happen? Because I will give you, because I will give you an example. I had a client, male client, from Saudi Arabia, okay, and we went into the coaching and and like I was coming in with an education from the UK, yeah, I mentioned today that I went to ashwinich Business School, that's where I was educated, right? Etc. And there the idea of the coach is that the coach does not instruct, so we do not teach, right? Which is, this is not, we don't hold the answers. You said, right? But in Saudi Arabia, the coaches do teach. That's in their system. That's a culture that that's in there. If you don't teach them, you don't instruct. They feel lost. They are confused. They feel that they you leave them in the lurch. So so it took a while, really, to to find a common understanding of what coaching is, and and for that, for the client to, for me, to kind of like tune in and do coaching that was valuable for him and that matched, that was fit for purpose, for his learning style. You know, rather than just insist on, this is how estrich taught me to be a coach, and I cannot let go of my philosophy of coaching, because this is because I don't know the kind of like the world will break down or something. To what extent can we let go of all these things that we were shaped by, which is very difficult because, because to be an ethical coach, I assigned, you know, the codes of ethics that I will not teach. So it's not teaching, it's that teaching is something different than coaching. But in that particular case, the client needed a sort of thing. Otherwise he couldn't have, wouldn't have been able to listen at all. I would have lost a client. So it's very complex, you see, well, Michael Hingson ** 48:12 and the the other side of it is, it's a matter of you taking all of your knowledge and putting the the teaching component of it, which is certainly something different in Saudi Arabia than what you find in Austria or England, but it still comes back down to your job is to coach the person and the techniques that you have To use, whether they include teaching or not, is just part of what you have to do. And, and you know, how much are you teaching in the traditional sense, or how much are you augmenting the coaching process? And, and that's also part of it. Tünde Erdös ** 48:55 Yeah, it is. It is. Michael, absolutely it is. And this adjustability, I like calling in the adaptability to kind of cultivate a certain adaptability intelligence right around and sometimes just let go of what we believe that should be and but that's also part of being present, because if I cannot let go of my of my belief system that something should be a certain way. Can I be of value, really? Michael Hingson ** 49:26 Right, right? Well, and, and again, I guess it depends a little bit on what you consider teaching, as opposed to coaching and and so there has to be a way to to meld the two in the situation that you found yourself in, and that's part of your ability as the coach, to adapt and connect with the client, which is important. Um. Which, which I can understand. You said something I'm a little bit curious about. And you said, you know, there are a lot of people think that coach meditates for five minutes and then goes in and, and, and coaches. And that is really true. But what do you think about the whole concept of meditation in general? Tünde Erdös ** 50:18 Whoa, you are opening up Pandora's box. Michael Hingson ** 50:24 Oh, because Tünde Erdös ** 50:27 what is meditation is again, how do we conceive meditation in the westernized world, as opposed to what it originally was and how it has evolved over time? I think that's a very difficult question, and I don't even dare venture into it. I just, I just know for myself so far, and I'm very cautious with with what I'm saying, what I know about it is that there are several ways to meditate. There are several ways to to kind of like, calm the mind, come back to what is now, let go, which is part of how we try to be present or make sense of being present. Stay always here, focused in a certain way. I do, there's a lot of research of meditation and the the effects, the effectiveness of meditation on on the on the brain and on, on, on our peace of mind to be very primitive, yes, like how it calms the Mind. But I think that we are, I think I would, I would not dare to venture out too much, because I think this is a vast field, and it's culturally so charged. Because, like, if you ask a Buddhist, what he in India, how he would see meditation, it's it's different to how we can even digest it, and even when somebody goes in and learns how to become like, to adopt Buddhic meditation styles, when he or she comes back into our culture, in the Western art world, it's like with yoga as well. It's adapted. It's a bit changed. It's different. It's because the context has changed, and maybe that's the point that I wanted to take. I think it's very, very important for me, at least, to always be aware of the context in which I am and which specific style of meditation would fit which context. Because I don't think that we we can really make sense of anything in the world, but please correct me if I'm wrong, and also the audience to chip in at any point on listening to this that how can we ever make any sense of anything without putting it into a specific context? Michael Hingson ** 52:55 Well, but, but meditation, certainly, there are several different kinds of meditation, yeah, but, but, and I wasn't asking about a particular kind, but rather, the whole concept of meditation is that you utilize it however you do to calm The mind or become more back in touch with your your mind, or again, maybe putting it in the way that that that you talk about, it really becoming more present and, and I'm not in any way suggesting, or wasn't asking for you to endorse a particular kind of meditation, but rather in general, conceptually, meditation is a process that gives you the opportunity, as I understand it, to slow down and separate yourself a little bit from the typical physical things that go on in The world, so that you can become more in touch with yourselves and and so if that is indeed true, and that's what I was, was really asking about, rather than a particular kind of meditation, if that's true, does that make sense? Yeah. Tünde Erdös ** 54:16 And you know, like, it's really like funny, because I just caught myself red handed. I was just inquiring, have I? Have I missed to be present enough with you when I missed the purpose of your question, I was kind of like inquiring into myself. Wait a second, how come that I I, I could not like I didn't pick up on what you were asking for, and I went into that place about the different styles of meditation. So you see, there is this, how fragile presence is, because I am, I want to be here, and I want kind of like, I think I'm listening to you, but still, there is something that I. Seem to have missed in this moment with you, of what exactly the purpose of your question was. So that's what I'm sitting with, like how interesting this is. And what if I had just taken a breath? You know, if I had taken just a conscious breath? Because when you were asking the question, Michael, I could in my body and I was, I was, I wasn't, I think I wasn't present enough, because my body was saying in my stomach, it was vibrating kind of like a membrane, was moving like a membrane. Because I have a lot of respect for the topic of meditation, and you cannot know this. So this respect, again, is lodged in my body so so much that it created this, this, this resonance, this, this movement of the membrane, and I did not pay attention to this, to kind of like to acknowledge it. Take a deep breath to be able to let go of this, to be there to listen to what you were asking me about meditation. So that's in the here and now, we are having this sense of, how can we meditate? I think in this moment, I could have just taken a breath, and that would have supplies to be more present as a way to meditate. And I didn't, Michael Hingson ** 56:20 well, okay, but I think we, we we dealt with it, though, we got there. And, you know, I think that there, there are a lot of books written on on meditation and so on, and there are a lot of people who talk about it in different ways. And far be it from me to ever judge which way is right and which way is wrong. I think the ultimate goal of meditation is to get people to slow down and back off a little bit from just being involved 24 hours a day in the world and giving your mind a chance to communicate with you. I think that we all too often, don't listen, and I think that's part of presence to our minds. My favorite example is, there's a game. Are you familiar with the game? Trivial Pursuit? Yeah. So I so often when I'm playing that game with people, and I've been guilty of it, and I'm working really hard not to do it anymore, but, but a question will come up, and somebody will ask the question, and immediately I'll have an answer, or I've heard other people say later they had the answer, but then they think about it for a second, no, that can't possibly be the right answer. But it was. We don't listen to our minds. And one of the things that meditation helps us do, however you do it, is to listen to our our minds and our hearts and our instincts, yes, Tünde Erdös ** 57:54 in this, this, yeah, this intuitive thing that says, well, it is, it is right, and, and that's, that's a story I could I could tell you stories about this intuition that I'm just in this story. Do we have a time so that I we have a little bit of time left? Yeah. So I'm very happy to tell you the story, something very painful, actually, that is that has just recently happened to me, is, is has been within business development. So I don't know why. I don't know why I'm doing business development, because I, my coach, was saying at one point in that you fell out of love with yourself and you fell in love with the outside world. Again, was saying to me, because at what point while I'm doing fine, sort of I because there's so much social media advertising around and people telling like, you should be doing this and that and and kind of like was caught by this FOMO thing, fear of missing out on something. I got trapped by the FOMO phenomenon, and I started investing in business development because I fell out of love with myself, and then at one point, in a very healthy way, my intuition, I would say, in a very healthy way for myself, my intuition was saying, Tinder, this is not the right thing for you. And also the way people are doing business development and all this marketing thing that's going on this is this, it's it's not the right fit for purpose for you. And I started having this dialog with my with the person that I hired, the expert that I hired, and and we really had big discussions about this, because I was, I kept telling her, Look, I think it doesn't make sense in my case, and with what I would like to market a business that and develop the business for it's not, it's not about one size fits all, because she started telling me that everybody's doing this, and this is the thing that's worth. For everyone, and my experience, it has worked for all my clients, and I said, I appreciate that, but my intention says that this is not a right fit for purpose for me. So why not let go of the one size fits all for everyone and find a creative way for this particular thing that I would like to market here, and it's we are still in the discussion, but it's this intuitive. I cannot prove it that it's the right way, Michael, but my intuition says that, no, don't go down that lane. Stay with you, or it's not right thing for you. But there's so much pressure, outside pressure to believe in what everybody else is doing and what should be done. It's really difficult to hold a place for myself, but Michael Hingson ** 1:00:46 if it's really but if it's really the right way to go, then she or someone ought to be able to offer something that demonstrates that, and until they do you've got your intuition that's guiding you, and your intuition may very well be right. So the idea, of course, is to be open, to explore all sides of it, but ultimately, you have to be the one to make the decision that makes perfect sense. Tünde Erdös ** 1:01:15 Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. Michael Hingson ** 1:01:18 So we've talked a lot about presence and integrative presence and so on. As we do wrap up, what what advice would you give to listeners? What would you like to see them do? What kind of things can you offer to just help people move forward and be better versions of themselves? Tünde Erdös ** 1:01:40 A few things, I guess, probably something courageous that I would encourage. I would I would encourage people to be more courageous around owning that we don't know, okay, that we don't know, that there's so little that we know and that we are standing on giant shoulders in to be very cautious with what we know. And you see like you could see like, how I was presenceless Today, at one point, I couldn't, could no longer hold a presence with you, and I just slipped. I slipped and I could not, and I needed to acknowledge this, that we are human beings in the first place, and that, and to own it and to work with it, just Yeah, to be vulnerable with this and to start here, start where we are actually, to start where we are, use what we have and to do what we can. And I think this is something that Theodore Roosevelt said, or it can be attributed to him having said this, to always just start where we are and be humble and modest about whatever we have learned, because I've really learned a lot and come a long way, and still a long way to go. Always just start where we are and and be humble about what, what who we are what we already know and always just do what we have, use what we have, and do what we can, stop predicting the future and and start comprehending what's going on now. It's so difficult what's going on in the world with us and in us, like I was, was talking about this, this experience with the business development, for a thing that I want to see marketed, how complex everything is and so difficult to comprehend what's really going on, why not be just starting there rather than talking about what the future will look like? Because what does it? Why do we care about something that we cannot predict and can not control? And instead look at like, what is it? What is that we can control? And and keep asking ourselves, who do I wish to be in what I'm doing? Not so much the purpose and why we are doing the thing that we are doing, and what for all important questions. But most importantly, who do I want to wish to be in whatever I am embarking on? Because, because it's not on any map. We are not on any map. Our true success is, is not on any map. It's it's in how we are conceiving and constantly reshaping the who, in what we are doing and and asking ourselves also when I will have achieved what I want, then what, and then what, because we are we get caught up in I want this, and I want that, and this is my goal, and I want to achieve this. And we are so good at achieving everything and anything is achievable. People keep saying, if we can keep the focus on it and have the resilience to push through, but then what? What will have happened then and what? Would have, will we have contributed so to think beyond the obvious in our lives? I think that that's what I would, I would, I would give away. Michael Hingson ** 1:05:12 Makes sense to me. Well, I want to thank you for for being here and talking with us a lot. Do you have clients all over the world? Yes, yes. Well, then I then I hope that that there will be people who are listening to this today who will reach out to you, if they want to do that, and they want to talk with you further. How do they do that Tünde Erdös ** 1:05:36 so they can listen to this stuff here again and again and again and share it in the world. Be grateful that. Be grateful to you, Michael, because at this point, I really also want to be grateful to you that you have been circumspect in seeing me in Europe, you know, picking me out and becoming aware of what I'm meaning to do in the world, and to and and for people to go in and look on the website. And Michael Hingson ** 1:06:09 so what is your website? That's why I say. How do people reach out to you? So what's the website? Tünde Erdös ** 1:06:13 It's www, dot t, u, e n, d, e r, d, O, E, s.com, it's my name without the umlaut. That's it, and, and, and just be curious because and be curious about you, Michael, because I, I that's what is more important, is to see like, 1:06:39 how Tünde Erdös ** 1:06:40 you have contributed to this dialog to flow. I I was really kind of like in awe. Thank you for listening the way you have and having taken me from point A to point B. So graciously. So Michael Hingson ** 1:06:57 Well, well, yeah. Well, thank you very much for being here and being a part of the podcast today. Most people don't know it took us a while to finally make it work. Our calendars weren't talking to each other very well, talking about not being in the presence the calendars were misbehaving. But we but we did make it work. So here we are, and I really am very grateful that you were able to to come on and be here with us today, and I want to thank all of you for listening. We really value you being here. Hope that you picked up some really good guidance and insights from this, and that you will indeed pass on our podcast information and that that you'll reach out to Tünde. We We really hope that you'll do that. So thank you. I'd love to hear from you. If you want to comment on today's podcast, please feel free. You can reach me at Michael H I M, I C, H, A, E, L, H [e-mail] A, C, C, E, S, S, I b, e.com, or go to our podcast page, www.michaelhingson.com/podcast Michael hingson is m, I C, H, A, E, L, H, I N, G, s, O n.com/podcast, wherever you're listening, please give us a five star rating. We love getting your ratings, and love the five star one. So thank you for doing that and and for being here, we will be back soon with another episode of unstoppable mindset, as I've told all of you many times. I also am a keynote speaker and travel and talk about September 11 and other things like that. And if you ever want a speaker, please feel free to email me at the email address I gave you earlier, or at [e-mail] So one more time, though, Tünde I want to thank you for being here and being with us today. 1:08:48 Thank you for the unexpected, Michael. Well done. Thank you so so much. Michael Hingson ** 1:08:58 Access Cast and accessiBe Initiative presents Unstoppable Mindset. The podcast where inclusion, diversity and the unexpected meet. Hi, I'm Michael Hingson, Chief Vision Officer for accessiBe and the author of the number one New York Times bestselling book, Thunder dog, the story of a blind man, his guide dog and the triumph of trust. Thanks for joining me on my podcast as we explore our own blinding fears of inclusion unacceptance and our resistance to change. We will discover the idea that no matter the situation, or the people we encounter, our own fears, and prejudices often are our strongest barriers to moving forward. The unstoppable mindset podcast is sponsored by accessiBe, that's a c c e s s i capital B e. Visit www.accessibe.com to learn how you can make your website accessible for persons with disabilities. And to help make the internet fully inclusive by the year 2025. Glad you dropped by we're happy to meet you and to have you here with us.