S5: E13- Addressing Clergy Abuse Featuring Christa Brown

Uncertain

Described as "the public face" of Baptist clergy sex abuse survivors, Christa Brown was one of the first to go public with substantiated child sex abuse allegations against a Baptist minister and documentation that others knew. Since then, for nearly two decades, she has worked to shine a light on the systemic problem of abuse and cover-ups in Baptistland.

Christa has been touted in the London Times as "a whistleblower of historic proportions." Her work was spotlighted on ABC's 20/20, and she has been quoted and featured in numerous news outlets, including New York Times, Washington Post, Associated Press, Houston Chronicle, VICE, Religion News Service, Tennessean, National Public Radio, Baptist News Global, Christianity Today, and Huffington Post.

After a 25-year career as an appellate attorney, Christa became a yoga teacher. As a runner, she once placed first in her age-category in a 10-K. "It was a rainy, blustery day, and I gained the edge by simply showing up," she says.

Though a native Texan, Christa currently lives with her husband in Colorado where she loves to hike in the Rocky Mountains. She is a proud mom and grandma. Connect with Christa on Twitter @ChristaBrown777.

Uncertain is a podcast of Tears of Eden, a community and resource for those in the aftermath of Spiritual Abuse. If you’re enjoying this podcast, please take a moment to like, subscribe, or leave a review on your favorite podcasting listening apparatus.

You can support the podcast by going to TearsofEden.org/support

To get in touch with us please email [e-mail]

Follow on Instagram @uncertainpodcast

Transcript is unedited for typos and misspellings

[00:00:00] the uncertain podcast is the affiliate podcast of tears at Eden, a nonprofit that serves as a community and resource for survivors of spiritual abuse. This podcast and the work of tears are supported by donations from generous listeners. Like you. If you're enjoying this podcast, please consider giving a donation by using the link in the show notes or visiting tears of eaton.org/support.

You can also support the podcast by rating and leaving a review and sharing on social media. If you're not already following us, please follow us on Facebook at tears of Eden and Instagram at uncertain podcast. Thanks so much for listening. Today I am with Krista Brown discussing her new memoir, Baptist Land, where she discusses her experiences addressing clergy sexual abuse within the Southern Baptist Convention it's a very powerful book. And it is a very needed book for this day and age when it seems like every day we have another story in the news about another clergy person abusing a congregant, a [00:01:00] child. It's rampant. So, super important book.

Really hope that you get a chance to read it. During the interview, we had some internet connection issues. I did my best to remove some of the bumps and clicks and gaps. Hopefully it will not impact your listening experience today. Here is my interview with Krista Brown.

Katherine: How are you doing today, Krista? How has it been since the launch of the book?

Christa: Well, it's been very busy since the launch of the book, but I'm very, very gratified and grateful for for the positive response that there's been.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. What are some consistent things that you've been receiving from folks?

Christa: Well, I think among survivors church to survivors, There's a lot in it that really resonates with people and, and I'm glad for that because I [00:02:00] think it helps people See some of the patterns of their own lives and realize that they aren't alone. But of course, it's not just for survivors I mean it also I think has been resonating with a lot of people who simply grew up in these very high control kinds of Religious environments And they see their own, they see those patterns too, even if they aren't the patterns of direct sexual abuse, they're also the patterns, just how much they were under the thumb of this religious control.

Katherine: I think that's one of the things that I really appreciate about the book is that you're not just saying here is the abuse and the abuse is bad and this is why abuse is bad. You're also exposing the theological foundation that is where the the soil for where that abuse grows. Exactly. And I don't I feel like that is missing in a lot of literature about abuse in the church.

There's like this [00:03:00] like qualifying statement of just like, but don't worry, the church is still good. It's just these bad people doing these bad things. And I really appreciate how you expose. Oh, it's a lot more than just a handful of folks being abusive and doing bad things. really appreciate that.

Christa: Yes. And all of that soil, as you call it is very, very powerful and the, the control and the authority and the domination that derives from it is very insidious.

Katherine: Yeah,

Christa: and I think can be enormously harmful.

Katherine: Yes, absolutely. And so complex as you, you showed of just all the different dynamics and for you specifically, you had abuse happening in your home.

At the same time as it was happening in the church. And so it was just kind of all, all of these layers [00:04:00] of social dynamics and family dynamics and power dynamics all wrapped up and, you know, faith in God and all

Christa: normalized. Yes, not only normalized but legitimized by the faith.

Katherine: And anytime.

Anytime. you expressed any like said no or I'm uncomfortable or I don't like this or fight for yourself then it was like immediate gaslighting and immediate like You are the problem. And of course, it's perpetuated of anyone who like, just like raises their hand and just says like, I'm a, I'm a little, you know, and then for incentive for people to even fight.

No, it's happening, but like, to even fight to try and change it. It's you just get squashed so fast.

Christa: That is exactly right. And that's. Why it's so very [00:05:00] hard for people, I think, to step outside of these environments because You know, it's like you're put in this little box and you try to occasionally peek outside that box and you get poked in the eye, you know, and you reach a hand outside the box and it gets slapped down and that box is pretty tight.

It

Katherine: really is. It really is. What are some things that are common for you and for you have seen as common for survivors that are things that are just associated with this type of abuse, the sexual abuse, the spiritual abuse that's happening in these communities that make it difficult for them to interact with faith communities?

Christa: Well, I mean, the, the faith community itself and all of the accoutrements of faith are often kind of neurologically networked in with sexual abuse. And that's not a cognitive thing that people [00:06:00] hold in their heads. It's, it's a physiological response. It's not as if we can reason our way out of it and say, Oh, well, fine.

I'm going back to my faith group. Because there were these good things over there because it's all kind of intermixed together neurologically in the same way that that language is intermixed with everything we hold and think. And I think it's very hard for people at the same time. And a lot of ways if we were, you know, if we've been raised in these faith groups.

from toddler hood. It's almost like we have a chip implanted in our brain because it's very, very hard to get past that that control because we have been indoctrinated and raised To give religious leaders the benefit of the doubt, to be trusting of them to give grace to be good and all that goes along with, with goodness and being good.

Oh, it would just not be so [00:07:00] good, right?

Katherine: But then for the good people, like it works on the good people. And. majority of folks are and so as you just kind of get like sucked into this vortex of just like constant inundation I call it like alien body snatching. We've just been inhabited by a foreign substance that is controlling us.

Oh my gosh. So real. Yeah. Interested in listening to more than 40 archived Uncertain Podcast episodes? All you have to do is sign up to become a monthly supporter of 5 or more. Becoming a monthly supporter will give you access to popular episodes such as Confessions of a Christian Parent and When Bad People Do Good Things.

You'll also get access to this episode without any interruptions from yours truly. Become a monthly supporter today by going to tiersofedian. org slash support.

Katherine: How did you become [00:08:00] Sort of like a spokesperson advocate for SBC bullshit that is happening in this organization.

Christa: Well, you know, this was never something that I foresaw or planned on. But, you know, in my own life when my daughter reached the same age, Approximately the same age I had been at the time of the abuse.

It just shifted everything it was as though I suddenly saw everything through new eyes and very different eyes. And at that point in time, I was still pretty naive and I thought, Oh gee whiz, if I just talk to church leaders about this, they will surely want to help me. And there'll be older and wiser.

Now they'll want to make sure that this man can't hurt anyone else. Yeah. And, of course, I've never been more wrong about anything in my life. That was not what happened. But as a mother, I just could not accept that. I mean, going to, you know, a [00:09:00] couple dozen Southern Baptist leaders trying to get someone to help with this, and finding absolutely no one.

Yeah. Even though my story was, you know, Corroborated and documented. That was just something that I could not accept and still can't. And then when I wrote my first op ed for the Dallas Morning News, and this is as far back as 2006. I thought, okay, I'm just going to say my piece here and get it out there.

And then I could walk away from all this and never mess with it. But, but what happened was, you know, my email was at the bottom of that op ed piece and and I was just flooded. And so then I, yeah. And then I realized, oh my God, yeah. And I could not, and I just kind of. I've been in this ever since.

So here I am still. Yeah,

Katherine: absolutely. Tell me a little bit about I, I love the letter that you write of just like this perspective [00:10:00] Just because there's no hope for the church doesn't mean there's no hope. Tell me a little bit about that and how that motivates you to sort of keep telling this story and keep saying stuff needs to change.

Christa: Well, it has always, I think, in very large measure been The stories of other survivors that has motivated me and I can't tell all of those stories. I, that I can tell my own story and hope that that helps others in the process and hope that it reveals something of the patterns of what happens in these dreadful dynamics.

And so the book ends with a letter that I wrote to clergy sex abuse survivors survivors. And, you know, at this point in time, I've kind of been in this for about 20 years, and I do not hold hope, certainly not for the Southern Baptist Convention for, for true, meaningful reform. No, they've had countless opportunities to reckon with this, and that's not what they're doing.

But that doesn't [00:11:00] mean there is no hope, because I think in every life. When someone reaches the point that they can begin to look at what was done to them, and even speak it to themselves. Or to close friends what was done and speak the truth of what was done, that that is hopeful for that person's life.

Because it is, it is the truth that carries us forward. And that brings transformation in our own lives. And that's a very hopeful thing. And so I do hold hope for that. And that's why I keep doing what I do, because I do think that truth holds power as a moral force in the universe. And even, you know, even whatever the Southern Baptist Convention ever does or doesn't do.

We still stand in the truth and that truth is what holds power for us.

Katherine: Yeah, the truth alone itself is important and some reason for hope I resonated with that a lot. I [00:12:00] think for the first few years that Tears of Eden existed and the podcast existed. I was kind of focused on like speaking to the church.

Like you need to do better. You need to stop doing this. You need to do better. And then quickly lost steam. I was like, it's not, it's like one story after another, after another, after another. People having very similar experiences to you. Going to the leadership, going through all the quote unquote right channels to like try and address it and getting shut down, getting re traumatized, re abused.

And it's like, and even now just the climate of the church, the institutional church across all denominations, it's like they're digging in and it's like they're just digging in. They're, they're, they're, they're not, there's not even an opening really for any kind of change or reform. It's like they're just, they're kind of circling the wagons and like making this even, you know, more strong stance.

And so [00:13:00] turning to shifting to, I'm not going to try and change this institution. I'm going to talk to the people who have survived was so much more. fulfilling and just like, okay, that institution is going to keep abusing people. And I am going to be here. This organization is going to be here for when those people are needing help.

It sucks. It's not ideal. But I love the way that you describe it as hope, so that this one person individual person collective of people get an opportunity to share their story, and that they are believed somewhere. Massive amount of hope

Christa: there. No, I resonate with that totally because I think for me too.

In the early years, I sort of viewed myself as speaking truth to power. Mm hmm. I don't view what I'm doing that way anymore, because the truth is the powerful [00:14:00] already know. Oh, they do. Yes. Oh, they do. They already know. Absolutely. . so nowadays, I think what I'm really doing is just speaking truth.

With and for the powerless. It is solidarity with them. Yeah,

Katherine: Absolutely. And I, I have stopped calling them are very recently stopped calling them power holders and call them power hoarders because they are just conglomerating and, and not. this is not an accident that they're in these places.

Like they're intentionally seeking and using a platform of religion and God to get to these places. I saw that thread in your book. Do you, I mean, I'm assuming that that was intentional of this thread of, People intentionally using God in the Bible to get to these places. Tell me about that, if that was intentional and what patterns you've seen of [00:15:00] just these type of predators actually intentionally using God in the Bible and the church institution to get these places of power.

Christa: Yes. I'm glad you saw that because of course that was intentional because that is what's happening. And I think you see that in the book. Both on a micro level and on a macro level. It replicates at the macro level. On the micro level, you see it in the way, of course, that Bible verses and Scripture and the whole power of the faith.

It is used literally as a weapon for child rape. at the macro level though, in this day and time, we are very much, I think, seeing something quite similar in the way that biblical perspective is essentially being used very often as a propaganda tool for maintaining status quo power. Yeah. And essentially using evangelical theology to legitimize authoritarianism.

Mm hmm. And I [00:16:00] think those are kind of the same thing there. Using faith as a tool and a weapon for domination and control. Mm hmm.

Katherine: Speak to the person who thinks that they can address the abuse in the church without addressing the theology.

Christa: You know, I do not think you can do this without addressing the theology, without interrogating

The theology that we see in, in a very broad swath of evangelicalism is a theology of male headship and female submissiveness teaching that men should be in charge and have authority over women and of course also over children.

And that Women, females should submit and even that they should graciously submit. And when you have a theology that teaches that some [00:17:00] people by virtue of nothing more than how they are born should be people who have others in authority over them. That is a theology that lends itself, I think, to abuse.

And when you combine that theology with an institutional structure that is wholly lacking in accountability systems, then what you've done is you've created this Frankenstein monster. That just inflicts enormous harm on so many people. And this theology, it's not as if they simply teach that this is the way it should be.

They're teaching that this is the way God says it should be. And that is incredibly powerful. And I do not think that this that you can solve this without interrogating seriously that theology itself.

Katherine: Absolutely. I'm going to [00:18:00] ask you another question because I know what the critics are going to say.

Hopefully they are not listening to my podcast anymore, but just in case, what about the teaching to the main tenant of complementarianism is that men and women are equal, but they just have different roles. What do you say to that?

Christa: Well, I think it's the same thing that we saw in Southern Baptist theology with their, I mean, with their, the way they addressed race.

And I mean, this began as an institution that was founded for the very purpose of having slaveholding missionaries. It was founded as an institution that sanctified slavery, that consecrated the confederacy, and gave birth to a bloody civil war. This is the Southern Baptist Convention. That is their very roots, [00:19:00] and those roots are still there.

And that, the same theology, That derives from those roots saying that white people should have authority over black people is now the very same theology they're using to say that white men or all men should have authority over all females, they can use that word equal all they want, but separate but equal is never equal.

Katherine: Yeah,

Christa: it's not.

Katherine: Yes. No, I love that you compared it to that, that slogan of separate but equal. Like, if there is something distinctly about your person that is causing the separation, it's not equality. It's, it's just not. You can use that word. It is not true. It's just, yeah, it's not. Yes. I saw in your bio that you're a lawyer or used to be a lawyer.

[00:20:00] I'm a retired attorney. Yes. Retired attorney. What was your And what has been your approach to this from like a legal perspective and like what you think needs to happen legally?

Christa: Well you know, I, I'm a retired attorney, so I don't give legal advice. But certainly I think my background has helped shape how I think about these things.

Or You know I do think that the Southern Baptist Convention has shown that it has no interest, not really, in seriously reckoning with this problem. And the only thing that will bring change in this massive, cantacular, multi billion dollar institution is outside pressure. And that outside pressure comes from lawsuits, civil lawsuits, criminal prosecutions independent investigations and from the media and so, you know, there, there are a lot of problems with bringing civil lawsuits, [00:21:00] particularly here in the south there are a lot of states that have very archaic statutes of limitation that, that impede the bringing of lawsuits.

But I believe that will change over time. I, I hold faith. In the dog

Katherine: statue of limitation all together across the board. Just

Christa: yeah, and I hold faith that that will eventually happen. I think the trend is going that way and I think America's trial lawyers are pushing and I have a lot of faith in America's trial lawyers.

Yeah, it won't happen in my lifetime, but this is the way it's going.

Katherine: Right. Yeah, and I think that that's helpful just kind of clarity for folks who are still relying on bringing in, you know, People to come in and try and do, you know, counseling and try and do, you know, organizational training or coaching or whatever within the institution, the same power power hoarders within that institution [00:22:00] are still controlling.

Even that, like it has to come from outside to make any, if there is going to be any change.

Christa: It does. And I am so grateful also, just want to say here to so many fine journalists who have done enormous work over the past couple decades. We would know so much less. Yeah, about the dynamics of how they hold this power, were it not for the work of dedicated journalists

Katherine: and authors like yourself

Christa: are

Katherine: also for the

Christa: courage and an outspokenness of so many survivors who stepped outside.

The arena and went to the outside and spoke the truth of their stories. Yeah,

Katherine: absolutely. Absolutely. Yeah, just for folks who since you do have, you know, the attorney experience. I know a big fear for a lot of folks and I don't know how litigious the SBC is. I'm [00:23:00] familiar with some denominations that are very litigious.

That fear of speaking their own story and then getting having being sued for like defamation or slander. Have you seen any patterns or anything that is helpful in that type of situation?

Christa: I think that risk, of course, is there and the Southern Baptist Convention has certainly shown that it will use scorched earth litigation tactics against survivors.

We certainly saw that it finally came to light in the case involving Paul Pressler where it came to light that they actually had emails among themselves where they showed that they knew that his allegations had serious corroboration and despite that for six years They tried every means possible against him in the litigation process.

We've seen it in the litigation involving another woman [00:24:00] in Kentucky. And I think, of course, what we see in this is, is really where their heart is. They aren't trying to do right by survivors, they're trying to squash survivors every way they can. And, and I know there's, there's a lot of us who were raised in this, in evangelicalism and broad swaths of it that teach that, you know, believers shouldn't sue other believers.

You know what? Get past that. Get past that and get yourself a good lawyer. Get over it. Get past that and go talk to a good lawyer. And maybe there's some, the legal system isn't perfect. And sometimes, given the passage of time and all sorts of factors, there may not be good legal recourse. But it is always worth at least consulting with a good sexual abuse attorney about your options.

Katherine: Yeah. And at least know, at least know what they are. And then there are ways I think also to just like go public about your story. It's so hard when you are the, [00:25:00] the survivor. And so like you are telling your version of the story. But I think that there are ways to like tell the story too.

And so like talking to journalists and stuff too, like how to, how do I phrase this so that. They're going to still come after you, even if you do all of potentially all of the things right that anyone can sue anyone for any reason. But yeah, there are, there are things that we can do to, to protect ourselves.

Right. With a time that we have left I would love to hear just maybe just like your, you would, what wanna say to survivors and people who are reading your book. What do you want people to take away when they read the book,

Christa: you know, to survivors? I say, first of all, you know, the, the very, it is the very nature I think, of sexual abuse that it inculcates in this.

this idea that we don't hold any value. And that's a lie. That is a lie. You are all, each and every one of you, [00:26:00] are human beings of infinite worth. And the lie that the abuse has inculcated and the continuing lie that faith leaders inculcate by their do nothing reactions as though it's no big deal.

All of that, all of that is a lie. So I say that to you. And at the same time, I would also say, you know, it's hard to do, but cultivate your skepticism. And I think that's really important. And don't feel guilty skepticism. They have not earned your trust, not one bit. So cultivate your skepticism and that skepticism, and when we see that faith itself, is being weaponized both to commit abuse and to silence survivors, then it behooves us to cultivate skepticism even as to [00:27:00] matters of faith.

Sure.

Katherine: Absolutely. No, and I appreciate, I appreciate you saying that because I think it's so easy for folks to just say, but then don't give up on God and then don't give up on the church and, and that can just kind of. Defeat everything that comes before that. Yes. And like that avenue of maybe this has done so much to destroy trust that it's no longer worthy of me investing and putting my time and my, my heart and my faith into this that, that, that is a legitimate option for people.

And guilt free. Yes, absolutely.

Christa: That is a

Katherine: legitimate path.

Christa: Yes, give yourself that freedom and focus on yourself and your own healing and make that the priority and let faith fall where it falls.

Katherine: Yeah.

Christa: But focus on yourself.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. [00:28:00] Absolutely. Yeah. And that, that, that being so counter to the theology that we were raised with of just like surrender.

I love the part in your book where you're just talking about that all to Jesus. I just surrender him that we all saying. And it was like, it's like an embedded into everything to just divorce yourself from yourself and to like give up everything. And that. When you are doing that, you, you become this ripe victim for for predators because, because there is nothing, no personal internal radar that you are able to pay attention to that you're, you're discouraged from paying attention to it.

In, in the, in these spaces because of this theology. And I 100 percent agree with you. It is worthy of.

Christa: All right, because what we've been taught is our bodies are not our own, our lives are not our own. Our lives are for the service of God, [00:29:00] which often means the service of these men who tell us about God.

Well, we gotta let that go.

Katherine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Long journey, long journey to get there, but absolutely 100 percent worth it. This was great. This was awesome. This is wonderful. Where can people find you? How can they follow you? How can they interact with you?

Christa: Well, I'm very active on Twitter.

I'm Krista Brown, 777. I also have a Substack newsletter, which is kristabrown. substack. com. Those are probably the two best places. All

Katherine: right, I will put that stuff in the show notes. Uncertain is produced, recorded, edited, and hosted by me, Katherine Spearing. Intro music is from the band Green Ashes.

I hope you've enjoyed this podcast. And if you have, please take a moment to like subscribe and leave a review. Thank you so much for listening and I will see you next time.