69. Growing Forward Podcast featuring Bob Smart

Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast with Paul Casey

Paul Casey: Goals are dreams with a deadline. So you have to start somewhere and that's some kind of dream or aspiration, and then you have to have a deadline now, because it's not done until you get there. Speaker 2: Raising the water level of leadership in the Tri-Cities of Eastern Washington, it's the Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. Welcome to the TCI Podcast, where local leadership and self-leadership expert Paul Casey, interviews local CEOs, entrepreneurs, and non-profit executives, to hear how they lead themselves and their teams, so we can all benefit from their wisdom and experience. Here's your host, Paul Casey, of Growing Forward Services. Coaching and equipping individuals and teams to spark breakthrough success. Paul Casey: It's a great day to grow forward. Thanks for joining me for today's episode with Bob Smart. Bob is the principal at Southgate Elementary school, the proud home of The Dragons. And I asked Bob for something quirky about him and he talked about Chuck Taylor's sneakers. Bob, tell us more about that. Bob Smart: Well, I started getting Chuck Taylor's sneakers, old school sneaks to match the colors of the schools that I was working with. And then somewhere along the line Paul, it became kind of a problem. I've done up two dozen pair and... Paul Casey: Two dozen pairs. Bob Smart: Yeah. Sadly true. Paul Casey: Are you competing with your wife or is this just she outpacing you? Bob Smart: No. I have won that one. Yeah. Paul Casey: Well, we'll dive in with Bob after checking in with our Tri-Cities influencer sponsor. It's easy to delay answering uncomfortable questions like, what happens to my assets and my loved ones when I die? So it's no surprise that nearly 50% of Americans don't have a Will, and even fewer have an estate plan. Many disabled clients worry that they don't have enough assets to set up an estate plan. But there are important options available, to ensure that you have a voice in your medical and financial decision-making, even if your health takes a turn for the worst. Paul Casey: Estate planning gives you a voice when your health deteriorates or after you're gone. Maren Miller Bam attorney at law, is currently providing free consultations. To find out more about estate planning, or to book an appointment, call Maren at [phone], or visit Salus. That's S-A-L-U-S-law.com today. Paul Casey: Thank you for your support of leadership development in the Tri-Cities. Well, welcome Bob. I was privileged to meet you, Boy, how many years ago has it been? Bob Smart: It's been a number of years. I was trying to figure that out before I came over. Paul Casey: Yeah. I'm going to guess seven or eight. Bob Smart: Yeah. Easily. Paul Casey: Yeah. You've spoken for... When I used to do these edge events, you spoke for one of those and I was able to coach one of your employees somewhere along the line, and one of the teams there. And so, yeah, it's been great. I've always enjoyed your focus on leadership and your enthusiasm. And so it's a pleasure to interview you today. So that our Tri-City influencers can get to know you, take us through a couple of career highlights that led you to your current position. Bob Smart: Well, I've probably taken the scenic route. So I started off as a science teacher and loved it and a baseball coach and loved that as well. Ended up being the school principalship and loved doing that. Had a tour of duty in central office as an assistant superintendent, I was a professor and a Dean. I was teaching in the grad school and I kept telling my students, which were principal and superintendent candidates, that the best job is principal. And then I got thinking, I was teaching a critical reflection class and I got thinking, what am I saying? So luckily I found my current job and they hired me and I love being a school principal. Paul Casey: And why do you love being a school principal? Bob Smart: I was just talking today to some folks that, if you like, anything can happen. That's the job. And it's phenomenal. You get to work with great kids, parents, teachers, staff. It's just a neat little place. Paul Casey: I too, I've been a principal and it is a variety job. No two days are exactly the same. Bob Smart: Yeah. Yeah. Paul Casey: I've chased children around the gymnasium, discipline issues. Yeah. I've sprained my ankle playing freeze tag with children before. So it's a great job, very stressful job for sure. And so you actually were a principal, went to district office professor, came back to that. Was that a difficult decision? Bob Smart: No, it really wasn't. Truly, it was thinking about what am I saying about the principalship? And I think I have had enormous satisfaction being a school principal. Paul Casey: So love what you do, is probably a philosophy that you would want to put out there for the Tri-City influencer listeners. Bob Smart: Absolutely. I mean, if you do what you love, it's a great day every day. Paul Casey: Yeah. So you're probably in your strengths zone, which multiplies your influence. How do you add the most value to the school? Bob Smart: Well, I think I'm a good listener, and I think I'm pretty thoughtful, and I think those skills really, really help. Pretty present in the building, so I have a lot of conversations in a day. Paul Casey: Do you intentionally pull yourself out of your office to be present? Is that just natural for your personality style? Or do you literally put that on your calendar, walk around? Bob Smart: Well, no, I do. I'm probably the opposite Paul. I have to return to the office. The joke is that I could probably sublet that office. I'm not in there that much. And there are definitely times I need to be there and do those kinds of things. But really most of the business is done in hallways, and walking around talking to people, hearing their stories and what their hopes and dreams are, and talking to kids all day. Paul Casey: What's been the net positive effect of that style of leadership? Bob Smart: Probably situational awareness. Being out in the building, talking to people, talking to kids, you can get a feel for what that tempo is, where the issues are, and then where you can help out. Paul Casey: Yeah. It's the old managing by wandering around MBWA. Right? Bob Smart: Exactly. Paul Casey: You can curtail problems. People say like, "Oh, while you're here, I've got a quick question." Right? Where they might not come to your office. Bob Smart: Have you been following me around? It's like every day. Paul Casey: Yes. Since you're here. Bob Smart: Yeah. Since you're here Bob. Paul Casey: And the other opposite, is people start to distrust leaders that they don't see. You've probably seen leaders or even principals along the years, that are bound to their office. Right? Bob Smart: Yeah. And it's also for our parent group too, stakeholder group. Because everyone has an experience with the school principal. And what we've been trying to do, is kind of break down those stereotypes. Paul Casey: Yeah. Bob Smart: And right now in COVID, it's really challenging. Paul Casey: Sure. Bob Smart: Prior to that, we see parents all the time and we try to stay away from the principal's office, so that people have a different experience so to speak. Paul Casey: I remember you teaching me that years ago, that people have negative experiences with school principals from their childhood, and you were trying to blast away at that stereotype by being one of them and just leveling the playing field. Bob Smart: Indeed. Paul Casey: On the flip side, leaders have to be aware of their weaknesses. So what is one of your favorite quote, unquote "ways" to sabotage yourself? Bob Smart: I love how you put that. And I can sabotage myself in a variety of ways, but one of the ones that I've had to get a handle on, is overthinking, and over-planning, and over analysis. Having a research background as such, I am real happy to try to overcomplicate something. When in fact what I've learned from that over time, is that a much more timely decision while maybe not the perfect decision, is probably a better decision. Paul Casey: Yeah. That reminds me of Colin Powell, the battlefield, if he gets 80% of the information it gets to go forward. Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: You'll never get 100%. Bob Smart: Exactly. And the cost, the cost of the organization and the person, to get that other little bit, isn't worth it. Paul Casey: Right. Right. It's minuscule. So I coach a lot of over thinkers. Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: I think we should start over thinkers anonymous group here in the Tri-Cities. What would you you say to an over thinker to try to help them snap out of it and yet still be who they are? Bob Smart: Yeah. That's tough. I mean, because you've got to understand the small game, and you've got to listen, and you've got to really think about what people want. So I'll start a lot of conversations with, "Do you want me just to listen? Do you want to work on a plan? Paul Casey: That's good. Bob Smart: Or do we want to gather more data?" And such. And a lot of times, it's just, Bob, I just want you to listen. And what I try to find, is when I start breaking out pages of spreadsheets and pivot tables, I normally try to have an intervention. Paul Casey: You just lost me so. Bob Smart: Well. Paul Casey: What's a pivot table? Bob Smart: It's something really cool, but it's probably just to me at [inaudible 00:10:24] Paul Casey: Down in the weeds, right? Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: Just down in the weeds. No, that it's a great marriage principle as well of, do you want me to still listen or do you want me to help solve the problem? Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: Because if you can get ahead of that, you're going to get ahead of the conflict that comes with, just listen, or I need you to help me come up with a solution, stop staring at me. Either way it sets the context for the conversation. Well, really do we achieve our highest potential by ourselves? So Bob, who keeps you accountable and energized, although you can feel the energy from Bob, can't you listeners?. But who keeps you accountable to getting your professional and personal goals accomplished? Bob Smart: One of the things I've done over the years and more recently than ever, is sharing with people, asking for feedback, and doing that in a genuine way. And telling folks, "Hey, when you see me start to do this, would you let me know?" Kind of the thing. And it can be a really difficult thing because you're setting down that mask and that shield and such to get to that point. So that's really helped me along. And what I have found is being a pretty approachable person. Many people, [inaudible 00:11:44]. Paul Casey: That's a blessing. Bob Smart: It's all blessing for sure. Paul Casey: Why don't more people especially leaders, ask for feedback? What's your gut on that? Bob Smart: I think ultimately, it's got to have a root cause down in fear. And I mean, people are stretched to their limit and we're all trying to figure out who we are, and how we can do these kinds of complex jobs like you talked about. And sometimes that feedback, especially unvarnished feedback, it can kind of hurt. And we need to be able to talk about that. And I think that's a start with valuing that feedback. Paul Casey: That is so good. Yeah. I think there is that fear. There a little bit of pride, maybe as well, like, oh, I think I'm doing the right thing here and now you're telling me I'm not." Bob Smart: Right. Paul Casey: And I don't know if I like that. Bob Smart: Well, you're pretty invested in these things. Paul Casey: That's a good word. Invested. Yeah. Bob Smart: All of a sudden it's like, wow, I'm getting some feedback that maybe this isn't the right course. In which genuine feedback and those kinds of genuine relationships and a shared sense of where we're going, I think is pretty powerful. But it's tough. Paul Casey: It is. Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: It is. And what a vulnerable question, when you see me doing this, would you bring that up? I mean, that just shows you're working on something. Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: And you really want to get better. Anybody that would say that question wants to get better. And it just makes it easier for then people around to go, "There it is again." And then you can chuckle maybe even. And it sort of puts a little levity to that issue of like, I interrupted again, or I'm talking too much, or whatever that thing is. Well, replenishment of energy keeps a leader at the top of their game. So Bob, principal's work is never done. Right? You could work seven days a week and the to-do-list is still going to be there. So what do you do to manage stress? Bob Smart: So my wife and I, we walk Howard Amon every day. Paul Casey: Really. Every day? Bob Smart: Snow, wind, slit, whatever. We walk it every single day. And if you know of Howard Amon Park, there's a red bench up at the top, and it's got a neat history to that bench. And we sit on that bench every day. And we don't finish the day until we go out. And sometimes that's eight o'clock at night with flashlights, or if I'm feeling particularly goofy, I wear those things on my head and those kinds of things. So we do that. That helps a lot. I also, I try to laugh a lot. And if you can't find humor in a school, you're not searching. Paul Casey: I've got a comedian buddy who started a Facebook group. You can all look it up. It's called Work Happy. And it's all the different ways, people in this group all are coming up with funny things to bring levity to work. Because we default to the negativity due to the stress of our job. So you've got to mix in laughter. And it is a great stress reliever. It's one of the best, I think emotional wellness habits that you can do. Bob Smart: You're right. You're so right. Paul Casey: And where is that bench by the way? So you've got the pool launch there at Lee. Bob Smart: Okay. Paul Casey: Where's is it compared to that? Bob Smart: Well, if you keep going North and you go up, there's an old building there. And you go up onto the dyke there, it's right at the top. Paul Casey: Okay. Bob Smart: You can't miss it. Paul Casey: Okay. Bob Smart: So here's the real secret Paul. Paul Casey: All right. Bob Smart: You got to look on the back of it, because there's a neat little plaque there. And I'll leave the rest to you. Paul Casey: Yeah. We'll just make that a little tease for the listeners. Bob Smart: Yeah. And so if you see a couple there say idle, because that's probably my wife and I. Paul Casey: I love it. And that's quite the commitment to say, you're going to do it every day, whether that's early or that's late. Bob Smart: That's right. Paul Casey: So you're getting exercise out of that, you're getting good conversation with your wife. Bob Smart: Exactly. Paul Casey: And both of those distress you. Bob Smart: And laughter. Paul Casey: And laughter. Well, before we head to our next question on people development, a shout out to our sponsor. Paul Casey: Located in the Parkway, you'll find motivation, new friends and your new coworking space at Fuse. Whether you're a student, just starting out, or a seasoned professional, come discover all the reasons to love coworking at Fuse. Paul Casey: Come co-work at Fuse for free on Fridays, in February. Enjoy free coffee, or tea, WiFi, printing, conference rooms, and more, and bring a friend. Fuse is where individuals and small teams come together in a thoughtfully designed, resource, rich environment, to get work done and grow their ideas. Paul Casey: Comprised of professionals from varying disciplines and backgrounds, Fuse is built for hardworking, fun-loving humans. Learn more about us at fusespc.com, or stop by 723 the Parkway in Richland, Washington. Paul Casey: Well Bob hiring in people development is crucial for leadership. If you could clone the ideal employee, whether that's a teacher, or support staff, anybody for your organization, what traits would that person have? Bob Smart: I think a person needs to be flexible. I mean, we've gone through a year of huge change, second order change. And I think that people that are much more nimble, people that are flexible, are going to be all right, but it's tough. And the second part, would be someone with a fierce customer service, whether that's in education or business I think is critical, an effective leader. And then I think the thing that is the game-changer, that last 5%, is somebody that's truly empathetic. Somebody that can truly empathize with stakeholder groups, people you work with, clientele, customers. Paul Casey: You used the word fierce before customer service. Why did you choose that word specifically? Bob Smart: I think that word is critical in the sense that, if you don't have a commitment to your next in line customer, and you're not absolutely committed to that, I think one, you lose genuineness and I also think that you're not in a service role. Paul Casey: Yeah. I had a feeling you were going to say that word service. That servant leader mentality, is gone when you get myopic. Just about me and my world, instead of the customer, the constituent that we're looking to serve. Bob Smart: Or transactional. Paul Casey: Oh yeah. Transactional. Bob Smart: Yeah. I mean, I think it's important to really have that commitment. Because once you have that commitment, more positive things from that relationship are going to come out it. Paul Casey: And it can become transformational, not just transactional, which educators are in a transformational business. You mentioned empathy as well. What does empathy sound like? What does it look like when you're... Interviewing is a tough deal, right? How do you listen for whether this person is going to be empathetic? Bob Smart: Well, I think some of it comes across as non-verbal inside those kinds of conversations. So what we'll do oftentimes, is we'll talk about scenarios. So here's the scenario that we oftentimes engage in. And then based on that response, that gives us a little bit of insight, whether or not you've got that empathetic response. Because in our business, we're in a highly, emotionally driven business. And oftentimes, we have to deescalate situations. And we can do that through humor, through kindness, but also most importantly through understanding. Paul Casey: Yeah. And that is so true that in hiring, if you were to say, "Hey, Paul give me a set of interview questions." I probably give you half of them that are scenario based, because people can be ready to answer the, "What are your strengths and weaknesses," questions. They're ready for a whole bunch of those, but they're not ready for the scenario ones. That's where the true person comes out. So I've had emerging leaders tell me they want to grow in thinking strategically. And they're like, "How I do that?" So what tips would you give on how to look at the big picture for greater longterm impact? Bob Smart: I would recommend that you study Red Tail Hawks. And that's kind of an odd response. But when you think about it, as a kid I grew up watching these red tail Hawk sit on top of these peepee apples. And then later on I found they've actually got two visions. One is on the horizon so they know when to pull up. And the other one is very focused and almost using a set of binoculars. So kind of a short-term in there, but having that eye for that horizon to get to whatever is going to happen. Paul Casey: The Red-Tail Hawk. Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: What an illustrative example of that. So it's looking long-term like you said the horizon, and then there's sort of the micro level. What are the small acts of leadership if done daily, can make a positive difference in the lives of teams? Bob Smart: I think being present, just being there, and talking to people, being seen, being visible. If you ask our kindergartners what I do, they say I boss cars. Because they see me out there in the parking lot, but we engage an awful lot of business in the parking lot, talking to parents, talking to kids, welcoming kids, especially during uncertain times. And... Paul Casey: Because you could delegate that, right? Bob Smart: Indeed. Paul Casey: You could say, "I don't want to be in that parking lot. The weather's crummy again today." But you choose to do that. Bob Smart: That's right. I choose to do that. And I think that's also part of my role is tone at the top. And demonstrating that welcoming, that assistance, that service, same thing at recess for our folks as well. Paul Casey: Tone at the top Tri-City influence listeners. Bob, flush that out a little bit more. Bob Smart: Well, I can espouse a variety of things. Paul Casey: Sure. Bob Smart: I can say, "Hey, it's really important for us to be outside, it's really important for us to greet people, it's really important for us to insert." But if I demonstrate that, that's so much more powerful. Meeting kids at the doorway, "How are you doing?" Especially now. Kids are scared, parents are scared. And having that opportunity. Also, when the principal is out in front of the building, as you well know, it is a certain reassurance. Paul Casey: Confidence builder. Bob Smart: Yeah. Plus we get to have a two minute conversation and if we scheduled a meeting, it would have been 30, 45 minutes. Paul Casey: So [crosstalk 00:23:29]. Are you saying it's an exit strategy for the long-winded people? Bob Smart: No, I wouldn't say that. Paul Casey: No, it's a lot of mini conversations... Bob Smart: It is. Paul Casey: ... That cumulatively turn out to be a culture. Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: And so you said, especially in these times. So let me take a quick side jont here by saying, what else is important in these uncertain times for leaders to do? You said to welcome them, be visible during this time. Any other strategies you're employing to try to help people deescalate some of these emotions? Bob Smart: Part of it is it's going to get better. And if you're not an optimist and looking forward with this, people are looking to leadership to, is it going to be okay? And it's going to be okay. We're going to get through this. We always do. And I think at some point Paul, it's ultimately love. It's really helping reassure folks and take care of people, that during really, really tough times. And in my line of work in schools, schools have a very important role in getting whatever stases and calm. Paul Casey: So as we try to balance people, because you're a people person with administrative tasks, you probably have to utilize some other people and who are stronger, where you might be a little weaker. So do you use your office staff, your administrative professionals to help you with that? Bob Smart: Well, we always have more work than we can possibly do. Paul Casey: Sure. Bob Smart: And I have to watch where I put what limited time I've got. Paul Casey: Yeah. Bob Smart: And I've got to be pretty focused on that. And I think you gave me an idea a long time ago. I still have it on my phone even. Paul Casey: No way. Bob Smart: Who can do this work? And every time... I don't make a lot of phone calls anymore, but I think about that. Because oftentimes that's a growth opportunity for somebody else that can do it. And then I can put whatever energies I have, into whatever I'm doing, whatever mischief I'm creating. Paul Casey: Yeah. Sometimes leaders have to be at the 30,000 foot level, sometimes at 15,000 feet. And today I think all of our listeners have got from you, you've got to be on the tarmac once in a while. Bob Smart: I think you're right. Yeah. I think that's true. Paul Casey: Well, some of our TCI listeners asked you, what two to three books or resources they must read, in order to grow their leadership skills. Where would you point them? Bob Smart: I would start off with Ron Heifetz's book, Leadership Without Easy Answers. And so that's from the Kennedy School of Government. And that was written a number of years ago, but he really sets up the arguments for a leader to understand what is happening on the dance floor below. Paul Casey: Yes. Bob Smart: And then the differentiating between a technical response and something else. Paul Casey: Adaptive. Right? Bob Smart: Exactly. Paul Casey: Is that the other one? Yeah. Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: I love that one. Bob Smart: So I just think, it is so powerful. It is really, really helped me think about my role as a leader. Paul Casey: Yeah. That's a good one. I use that, get up in the balcony and look on the dance floor. Bob Smart: That's right. Paul Casey: All the time I'd probably need to quote him, because I've totally stolen that. What's another resource that you'd point people to? Bob Smart: I like Drive by Daniel Pink and understanding that really at the end of the day, people are looking at self-direction. I think effective leaders create opportunities for folks to direct their work. And I think that's a powerful outcome. And I think that goes all the way back to what we're talking about, as far as if you care about people and helping them reach their goals. So that's a powerful work I like. The other one, is... And I think about it more often in the last year to 18 months, is Richard Swenson's work on Margin. Paul Casey: Yes. Bob Smart: I love that. Paul Casey: Yes. Bob Smart: And it's such an easy equation, but extremely difficult to do. Resources minus load equals margin. Paul Casey: Yes. Bob Smart: And what I find with leaders, is that we can operate in negative margin for a while and you would never redline your car. The engine's going to blow up. Well, not altogether different than that. So I think having conversations about margin, is really important in a longterm look at leadership. Paul Casey: Boy, you're the only other person I think that has mentioned that book... Bob Smart: Really? Paul Casey: ... In my life. Yes. I read it years ago in an administrative conference in Seaside, Oregon. I still remember when he came to speak and yeah, the whole load minus limits equals margin and you can't go into negative margin. Bob Smart: Yeah. Paul Casey: But our bodies were not meant to stay in overdrive for too long. He's got some good stuff on nutrition in there. This is years and years ago. But all the different ways that we need to build more white space into our day, to absorb the unexpected. I remember that phrase. Bob Smart: All those curves are the same. You can put all those curves together, whether it's nutrition or whether it's health, they all say the same thing. And my area of research is the principalship and rapid promotion and what happens. And the concern I have, is that the attrition rate for school principals is quite high, same as teachers. And it's alarming. And I think part of the answer has to do with having more honest conversations about margin. Paul Casey: So good. Well, finally Bob, what advice would you give to new leaders or anyone who wants to keep growing and gaining more influence? Bob Smart: We talked a little bit about this before. I would still make a list, but I'd be willing to chuck it in the first hour and be okay with that. Paul Casey: Oh no. You're giving me convulsions. Bob Smart: This is probably an overused cliche, but listen, learn and lead. I just think that's powerful. And I think it's okay to take some time to understand something, to really be in a position to where you can lead. And then finally, I think don't take yourself seriously. And I crack myself up all the time with the goofy things I do and that's okay. Paul Casey: Listen to learn to lead the three L's. Don't take yourself too seriously. These are great takeaways. Bob, how can our listeners best connect with you? Bob Smart: Well, I'm in the land of The Dragons at Southgate Elementary and where every day is the dragonrific day and pretty easy to get ahold of. And so... Paul Casey: Thank you so much for all you do to make Tri-Cities a great place and keep leading well. Let me wrap up our podcast today with a leadership resource to recommend. This past year have gotten certified in the EIQ, which is the Emotional Intelligence Quotient assessment. And so it assesses you in three areas, self-recognition, social recognition, self-management and social management. So for 60 bucks, you could take this assessment. Paul Casey: I'd be happy to debrief it with you. You can do a retreat for your team on it and to do a group debrief, so that the entire organization, or your entire leadership team, can raise the emotional intelligence level, which is one of the best leadership pursuits you could have for your professional development this year. Paul Casey: Again, this is Paul Casey. I want to thank my guest, Bob Smart from Southgate Elementary, land of The Dragons, for being here today on Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast. And we want to thank our TCI sponsor and invite you to support them. We appreciate you making this possible, so we can collaborate to inspire leaders in our community. Paul Casey: Finally, one more leadership tidbit for the road, to help you make a difference in your circle of influence. Milton Berle said, "If opportunity doesn't knock, build a door." Till next time KGF, Keep Growing Forward. Speaker 2: Thank you to our listeners for tuning in to today's show. Paul Casey is on a mission to add value to leaders, by providing practical tools and strategies, that reduce stress in their lives and on their teams, so that they can enjoy life and leadership and experience their key desired results. Speaker 2: If you'd like more help from Paul in your leadership development, connect with him at [e-mail], for a consultation that can help you move past your current challenges and create a strategy for growing your life or your team forward. Speaker 2: Paul would also like to help you restore your sanity to your crazy schedule and getting your priorities done every day, by offering you his free control mind calendar checklist. Go to www.takebackmycalendar.com for that productivity tool, or open a text message 272000 and type the word grow. Paul Casey: Tri-Cities Influencer Podcast was recorded at Fuse SPC by Bill Wagner of Safe Strategies