374: Mens work with Dr. Jonathan Brajtbord

The Art of Living Big | Subconscious | NLP | Mindset

Today on the show Betsy connects with Dr. Jonathan Brajtbord, a Urologist and integrative physician and men’s lifestyle expert.
Through the process of doing his own inner work, Dr. Jonathan realized more men need guidance to create a foundation to look at their own life and create fundamental practices to begin to shift and create massive change in their lives, so he created Mens Work: Inner work for professional men and hosts in-person Masculine Embodiment retreats.
Jonathan is of the firm belief that men can grow and change within the context and foundation of the life they have created. it just takes commitment, creativity and a shifting of priorities.
We hope you enjoy this show!
Find Dr. Jonathan here: https://www.instagram.com/jonathanbrajtbord/
and get more info on his offerings here: https://linktr.ee/jbrajtbord

Transcription:

Betsy [00:00:05]:
Welcome to the Art of living Big podcast. My name is Betsy Paik. I’m an author, a speaker, and a trainer of NLP and hypnotherapy, and I’m focused on helping you understand and design your life with the power of the subconscious. This podcast is designed to help you think differently about what could be possible for your life. Now, let’s go live big. Hi, everybody. Welcome. Welcome to the art of living big.

Betsy [00:00:35]:
I’m really excited today. I know I feel like I always say I’m so excited to be here, but I really am excited because today I have my friend doctor Jonathan Breitboard with us, and I have needed him to come on the show. Like, this has been so necessary for me. So, Jonathan, tell everybody about what you do, and then it will all make sense of why I needed you here.

jonathan brajtbord [00:00:57]:
Perfect. So I am a physician, so I’m a urologist. By training, and through my own kind of personal story issues, kind of whims, and the way the world works, I ended up going on my own journey through personal growth, through men’s work kind of avenues. And over the last, I, I guess, now four years, I’ve created my own course to help men. Essentially, it’s like an intro to inner work for professional men. So my online course is called men’s work inner work for professional men. It’s a seven week online course where we get guys to kind of get back in alignment with who they are, kind of get in touch with their kind of inner self. And that’s kind of the core of what I do outside of being a urologist, I talk to men all day long.

jonathan brajtbord [00:01:45]:
I talk to women who want their men to do inner work all day long as well, too. Um, and so in addition to the online course, I also run a retreat twice a year called fortitude, which is a three day in person retreat. Very small, very intimate for men as well, too.

Betsy [00:01:58]:
So that’s really cool. And you do that where you live in Massachusetts?

jonathan brajtbord [00:02:02]:
Yeah. So we do the in person retreat at our farm in Massachusetts. We use the land we use. We have a lake, we have fields, we have a barn. And so we use the elements in the, in the, you know, nature and in our kind of where we live to get guys grounded back to themselves.

Betsy [00:02:19]:
That’s really cool. What was there a catalyst for you that made you be like, I’m going to do? Well, first of all, I’m going to do this work for myself, and then I’m going to help other people do this work? Like, what was the catalyst to even get it started.

jonathan brajtbord [00:02:33]:
Yeah. I mean, the catalyst for me was really my own personal struggles. Right? So, like, I kept, like, waiting for things to get better, right? So, like, in medical school, I was like, oh, I’ll be better when I graduate medical school and go to residency. And then in residency, I was like, oh, I’ll be better when I finished residency. And that was, like, a six year process. And as a physician, like, we’re used to, like, long timelines, so, like, it would. It took a while.

Betsy [00:02:57]:
Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:02:57]:
And I finally got to the end of all my training, and, like, I looked around like I had, you know, I had a great wife. I had a nice car. We had a nice cow, you know, nice house. I had two kids. I had one on the way. And I’m like, I’m still not happy. Like, what the hell am I missing here? And it really took, like, a breaking point almost in my marriage and in myself to kind of start me down this, like, inner work, personal growth journey, if you will. And then along the way, I met incredible men, and I am very grateful for the sacred Sons organization, which is kind of where I got started in a lot of this.

jonathan brajtbord [00:03:33]:
And I looked around, and there were not a lot of resources for professional men who were doing this work. And so, you know, my wife being who she is, she’s like, well, that’s because it’s for you to do. I’m like, shit. But she was right.

Betsy [00:03:48]:
I.

jonathan brajtbord [00:03:48]:
And so I’ve really, over the last, you know, three and a half years, I’ve run this course, and it’s really just like a compilation of my own journey through, you know, working with therapists, working with coaches, working on courses, um, and put together, you know, this course, this offering for men who, you know, we have men who are lawyers and business people and finance people other way from, like, carpenters and, you know, plumbers doing this work. And it’s all men who are looking for a little bit more out of their life, and they don’t know where to get started.

Betsy [00:04:19]:
Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:04:19]:
And I kind of see myself as a accessible, normal guy kind of doing this work and try to have that be related to men.

Betsy [00:04:27]:
Yeah, you’re like a Sherpa that doesn’t look like a guru. You know what I mean?

jonathan brajtbord [00:04:33]:
Like, you’re not like, oh, yeah, exactly. And I couldn’t see what I could relate to as well. Right. I mean, there was a few here and there, but I didn’t find people who I could identify with. I couldn’t find men who were doing this work. Who, you know, were married, who had kids, who had another.

Betsy [00:04:48]:
And the career that you have, too, like, so, like, you understand the pressure of all of the family things, right. Cause that is a pressure. And then of having a career that really takes a lot of focus.

jonathan brajtbord [00:05:01]:
Yeah. And it was. I had to try to balance, like, what is, you know, what’s the growth piece, what’s my own work, and how do I reconcile, you know, this inner work piece with also providing for a family, also being a husband, being a dad to three young kids. And what those pressures are. Like. A lot of my mentors and teachers just didn’t have those same pressures.

Betsy [00:05:22]:
Right. Yeah, yeah. You know, it’s. I’m pulling off a post it from group, from when I had group with my ladies last week, and somebody said, well, when I do that, then I can be happy. And I actually wrote it down because I thought that’s. I think that is the thing. Right. And that’s what I’m hearing you say is, like, okay, as soon as that happens, then I’ll be.

Betsy [00:05:44]:
Then it’ll be. Then it’ll be. But I then never comes.

jonathan brajtbord [00:05:47]:
No, it never ends. Right. And, like, that’s what I had to realize is, like, I had all of a sudden reached that point and, like, what the fuck?

Betsy [00:05:55]:
Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:05:56]:
And so it just really threw me for a loop and, you know, really kind of. Kind of pulled me down this journey.

Betsy [00:06:02]:
Yeah. Yeah. Okay, so I have a lot of questions for you. I have a lot of questions for you. One of them is, are you a swiftie?

jonathan brajtbord [00:06:12]:
Oh, absolutely. With my wife and two daughters, who are essentially nine and six. Yes, for sure.

Betsy [00:06:18]:
Okay, so we can continue. We can continue this interview. Okay, so then here’s what I think. Cause I write two women every single day on instagram.

jonathan brajtbord [00:06:28]:
Yeah.

Betsy [00:06:28]:
And there was a time, in fact, I did a show on it about hate on the gram. There was a time where a lot of men were really hating on me. Now, I had a lot of posts at that time going super viral. Like eight, 9 million views.

jonathan brajtbord [00:06:41]:
Yeah.

Betsy [00:06:42]:
So I think that was a component of it. But I also think a component of it was that I didn’t have a nervous system that was adapted, so I was really touchy. So if anybody put something, I would take it as being really mean. But also, it may not have been as mean, because when I healed that stuff, I noticed a shift that the comments I get from men are now more curious, interesting than mean. Right. So the only thing that changed, really, is. Is me. So I’m pretty sure.

Betsy [00:07:14]:
But what I found was men I don’t think have any guidance. And I want you to riff on this, but I think that the patriarchy created an experience for men that doesn’t allow them to access their inner guidance system, their emotions. Right. To be able to guide them. And so they’re, like, constipated from it. And then when they see something that they could go. That’s why. Because you’re saying this, right.

Betsy [00:07:51]:
Then they, like, attach to it. But to me, it feels like a huge cry for help. Tell me your thought on that.

jonathan brajtbord [00:08:00]:
Yeah, I mean, I think men don’t know why they’re nothing happier than they do. They treat themselves. Yeah, of course we do. Of course we do.

Betsy [00:08:11]:
All the time. They’re like, my husband says he’s fine, but there’s no way. Right?

jonathan brajtbord [00:08:15]:
No. We. We fool ourselves. I fooled myself for years. Right. And then it comes out in other behaviors. Right. It comes out in drinking too much.

jonathan brajtbord [00:08:21]:
It comes out in, you know, or even eating too much, not taking care of ourselves. Right. All these, like, bad behaviors. Drugs, you know, addiction to porn. Right. All of these bad, bad behaviors. Right. They’re just outlets of our own suppressed emotions that we are not able or feel comfortable how to access.

jonathan brajtbord [00:08:38]:
Right. They don’t have spaces for men to be able to hold them in a container. Right. So then they go to their partners, which is not a healthy dynamic, either, to have your only person be your partner trying to hold space for you and processing your bad day or processing these big emotions. So we stuff it down or it comes out in these kind of sideways behaviors. But, yeah, we don’t know why we’re not feeling as happy as we think we should. Because for a lot of the men I work with, they have all this hourly success. Right.

jonathan brajtbord [00:09:08]:
But something is missing. And I would argue that the thing that they’re missing is the inner work or the thing that they’re missing is the connection with themselves and how they see and view the world around them. The changes that I help men go through. Right. It’s not like. It’s not super profound. It’s not as if, like. And I really.

jonathan brajtbord [00:09:27]:
I really desperately believe that men don’t have to go off and, like, neglect their responsibilities and stop being a husband, stop being a father, go live in Bali for six months to find their inner peace. Right. You have to be able to do within the context of your life, within the responsibilities that you have, because ultimately, like, you’re responsible. Right. And I think that’s a lot of the piece of it is that men we don’t feel we haven’t claimed that responsibility in our life. Right. Life just kind of happens to us, and the. Nothing can be further from the truth.

jonathan brajtbord [00:09:56]:
Right. You have to claim that responsibility because we are responsible 100% for the reality that we create, good or bad. But until you acknowledge that, until you recognize that, you’re always playing in this victim mentality. Right. And so that’s just an excuse. You know, I believe it’s an excuse for abdicating your responsibilities, for stepping away from connection, for not meeting your partner where they want to be met. Right. And so it just fuels this constant, like, shirking of responsibilities and not living to your fullest potential.

Betsy [00:10:24]:
Yeah, that makes so much sense. And I think that, you know, we do cope in different ways. Right. We fill the void by having to have, you know, women. We see it with this, like, moms and wine thing that we all see, like, the memes or whatever, you know? And I get it. It’s funny, but, like, there is, like, an undercurrent of, like, I have to in order to chill out, because I don’t know how to do that on my own, and I need relief. And I think people go to a lot of different things. I’ve done it.

Betsy [00:10:53]:
Like, I am not, you know, I’m no better than any of the other wino moms out there. But, like, I think that when you start to learn other ways, it creates a huge shift. Now, here’s what I think is it feels to me. You correct me if I’m wrong, but it feels like women have been on this path, and I think there’s a huge momentum right now in terms of women really showing up and claiming their power. Right.

jonathan brajtbord [00:11:17]:
For sure.

Betsy [00:11:17]:
Your wife’s part. Your wife’s a leader in that.

jonathan brajtbord [00:11:20]:
Yep.

Betsy [00:11:21]:
Tell people who your wife is.

jonathan brajtbord [00:11:23]:
Yeah. So my wife is Sarah Jenks. So she has been an entrepreneur for the last, oh, God, I don’t know, 15 plus years, and has really been on her own journey and is out there, you know, she’s a ordained priestess. She leads, you know, sacred feminine spirituality retreats and is really, you know, claiming the sacred feminine and trying to normalize what that means for women in their lives and bring it into their everyday life. So you can imagine, like, our life is, you know, very big and very full with, you know, the power of the feminine. And I had to realize, like, shit, if I’m not able to show up.

Betsy [00:11:57]:
Yeah, that’s such a good point. Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:12:00]:
And then, I mean, that was pretty much, like, at the. One of the breaking points of our marriage. Like Sarah was, you know, deeply desiring this, you know, level of connection that, quite frankly, I had no idea how to do.

Betsy [00:12:12]:
Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:12:13]:
But it was like, in that request and when she was able to express that emotion to me, not just like, you know, hey, I want this and, you know, demanding it, but really the emotion of it, I had to realize, well, either shit, like, I’m going to lose her or I’m going to have to step up myself and learn how to hold the masculine container and be able to hold the presence for the feminine energy. And that’s been a big part of my work, is to help men understand how to do that. So it’s been big.

Betsy [00:12:43]:
Tell me. And I love this because I do think when women start doing the work, and I say this to the women in my program, by, like, week six or seven in my program, you’ll start to notice your husband may be showing up differently. Right. And so much of that is because if he is able to rise to her standard, her standards are changing. And so it creates an obviousness, right. Of like, oh, this person’s up leveling, and we want to be around people that are, like, going somewhere.

jonathan brajtbord [00:13:12]:
Sure. Yeah.

Betsy [00:13:13]:
And I think that’s a struggle with women. So they’re looking for men that are going somewhere. Go ahead. You were going to say something good.

jonathan brajtbord [00:13:19]:
Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, unfortunately, at least this was the case for me. Like, I was like, okay, I up leveled. I’m good. Check. Right? And then the reality is, is that I had to come to terms over the last, you know, 18 months, two years, even longer. Sometimes it’s like it’s never, it’s just a process, right? It never is a destination. It’s a orientation.

jonathan brajtbord [00:13:40]:
It’s a mindset that you’re constantly growing, you’re constantly evolving and changing. Because I tried to apply to my old mindset, which was like, you know, the physician med school, like, check the box. Okay, we’re done. We’ve done this. But the reality is, like, as soon as you reach a new height, like, it’s the next one. And for some men, that’s very daunting. And it feels like, oh, fuck, well, I’m never going to be good enough, right? But I think that’s like, you know, if you want to use the word patriarchal, like, system, like, that’s that old mentality. Whereas, look, like, I’m on this path of growth.

jonathan brajtbord [00:14:12]:
I’m on this path of kind of continuing to figure out who I am and how I can connect with my partner in deeper ways. And I’m along for the ride, and I’m open to it. And, like, it’s a subtle shift, but it’s a hugely important one to be able to continue to connect to women who are, like, in your community, who are. Not only are they opening up, but they’re continuing to grow.

Betsy [00:14:31]:
Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:14:31]:
So they are looking for, I would imagine, partners to help, you know, not to help, but to be along that journey with them.

Betsy [00:14:38]:
Right, right. You know, one of the things that I think makes patriarchy, racism, all of these systemic things that we have in our life embedded in our lives. And I. I believe, like, with the patriarchy, like, I have misogyny in me. Like, I’ll see it come out sometime, right. And I’ll be like, oh, my God, why do I. Why do I think that thing, like, what is it that I think about being old and women that are older? Like, why am I. And so really questioning some of that stuff.

Betsy [00:15:06]:
Yeah, but I’m curious for you, because you must have it, too, or have had it. Right. Like we all do, but with that feeling of women are supposed to do certain things in a relationship. Right. How have you shifted in that? Because you have a really strong wife, and I don’t mean to keep bringing up your wife because this is about you, but I think that. Yeah, it’s part of it. Right. And I think that, especially with somebody like that, do you think that helped you to move in a way that you saw things differently, or do you think it was something else? Was it somebody else that had an impact on you?

jonathan brajtbord [00:15:48]:
Well, I think. I mean, I think Sarah was a huge part of it is the reality. Because, you know, I grew up in Texas, right? So I grew up very much in the south, like, you know, old fashioned american, you know, family. Like, my dad went to work. My mom was a stay at home mom. And so there was part of me that just for lack of a better word, assumed that that was going to be the case. You know, maybe not. We were married at first because we had kids a couple years later, but then it was just a kind of whole reorientation around, how does a woman show up as a wife, right? And who am I to tell my wife what to do about how to live her life? And it’s like, you know, she’s incredibly strong, incredibly powerful.

jonathan brajtbord [00:16:30]:
You know, why. What right do I have to tell her that she should do this and she should do that? And so it’s really. It’s just taken, like, questioning things, I think, being open to the idea of, like, oh, why do I think that, right? Or why is that, like, my bias? Or why is that, like, my default reaction?

Betsy [00:16:48]:
Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:16:48]:
So staying open to that question, and then, you know, kudos to women like you and women like Sarah who are, like, just continuing to be like, no. Like, they’re going to do what they want to do come hell or high water. And, like, I think that’s incredibly powerful. Right. There’s nothing wrong with women staying at home. There’s nothing wrong with women working. The idea, at least for me, is that people should be able to choose, right.

Betsy [00:17:11]:
And to know what’s really their choice, as opposed to, like, I’m supposed to do this thing, right.

jonathan brajtbord [00:17:17]:
This conditioning that we have, right. And men have it, women have it, right. Like, the societal, cultural conditioning that we have, it’s beginning to question those things. And that can be really powerful once you start paying attention to those.

Betsy [00:17:29]:
Right. One of the things that I really liked when I started following you and I, you know, I was really watching, because a lot of times, I mean, I get men that ask me all the time and women that ask me for their men, like, you know, who can you tell me about? Who can you send me to? And I had some friends that said, oh, I know my husband’s best friend went to this guy, and I would go and look, and I was like, that guy’s, like, standing in front of his rented Ferrari. Like, I. Do you know what I mean? Where? I was like, I don’t. That’s not what I’m looking for. Tell me what you think about this whole, like, what makes you and your program. And I can see it, but I want you to describe it, like, different from when we think of toxic masculinity. Because masculinity in itself isn’t inherently bad.

Betsy [00:18:17]:
Femininity isn’t bad. I believe we all have both. Right. So tell me what your thoughts are on that.

jonathan brajtbord [00:18:24]:
Yeah, I mean, so I think one of the things that my program differentiates and what I do, you know, first of all, I think, as we kind of alluded to, right? Like, I’m a normal ex college athlete, professional guy who’s trying to get the most out of my life. And I think a lot of men can relate to that. As opposed to, like, the flashy Ferrari, the helicopter, the ski trip, the this, the that. Like, that’s nothing. That’s not me. That’s not who I am. And I think it’s something that I learned through sacred sons was trying to help men connect, like, their heads and their hearts right. And so it’s like, how can we make those connections so that we can live in integrity, so that we can live in balance? And I think, you know, and show up.

jonathan brajtbord [00:19:06]:
Like, I truly believe that men, like, you know, desire to show up as their best selves for themselves. But also, like, I’m a big believer in, like, showing up as your best self to support your partner. Right. To be the best father that you can be. And so it’s when you’re in alignment as a man with that sense, then you’re able to hold the container for the feminine. Then you’re. Then you’re able to hold the container for your kids in a much healthier way. And so I think it’s that shift as opposed, like, look how much money I make or look what kind of nice, fancy tool, like cars and toys that I have.

jonathan brajtbord [00:19:38]:
Like, that’s not.

Betsy [00:19:39]:
Because then that’s. That’s still the same path as, like, the checking the boxes and.

jonathan brajtbord [00:19:44]:
Correct.

Betsy [00:19:44]:
Right. Yeah, yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:19:45]:
You know, because you’re not, again, you can buy all the fancy cars, but again, until you’re doing that work for yourself, until you’re actually in alignment, you know, it’s not going to be as fulfilling.

Betsy [00:19:55]:
That’s the thing. Right. The fancy car isn’t the problem.

jonathan brajtbord [00:19:58]:
No, no. Money. Money doesn’t. Yeah, money doesn’t make you, you know, happier, doesn’t make you more or less of a man. Right. It just amplifies who you are inside.

Betsy [00:20:09]:
Yeah, yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:20:10]:
And so, yeah.

Betsy [00:20:11]:
And if you’re distant and lonely and not fully satisfied, you’re just going to be a distant, lonely, not satisfied person with some money.

jonathan brajtbord [00:20:18]:
Right?

Betsy [00:20:19]:
Yeah, yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:20:20]:
Again, most people think, like, oh, when I have the money, then I’ll be happy, or when I have the money, then I’ll make time for this and, like, yeah, I’ve seen in my own life, like, when you actually stop that circus and on that carousel and you take a step back and are able to actually do the work for yourself.

Betsy [00:20:36]:
Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:20:36]:
You know, first of all, abundance tends to flow much more because you’re more in alignment. Right. You’re able to receive more, and you’re able to hold so much better space for your partner. They’re able to be more in flow, they’re able to be more abundant. And your kids are thriving in that environment, too.

Betsy [00:20:50]:
Yeah. Yeah. What do you think is the hardest shift for men that come through your program to make? Like, what’s the big thing? Like, I know in my program, it’s like, when they get how their unconscious works and how much is really available to them that they just really don’t see, you know? So that idea of they’re really creating their reality, I think that’s like one of the, when they really get it, you know what I mean?

jonathan brajtbord [00:21:13]:
For sure.

Betsy [00:21:14]:
What would you say, Jeff?

jonathan brajtbord [00:21:15]:
Well, I think it’s two things, right? So the hardest thing for men, and, you know, I’m sure you’ve seen this in the partners of the women in your program, is just getting them in the door. Right. Just getting them to believe that they are a worth the effort, that what they’re doing is worth their time. Right. And so when they have that initial buying already, shifts start to happen. And then I think when they start taking responsibility for their life and they start seeing how they can relate to their partner different, their kids different, and they can shift, when we have that presence. Right. That full, undivided attention into whatever they’re doing, then they can make different decisions.

jonathan brajtbord [00:21:54]:
Right. We start responding instead of reacting. Right. And so it’s like, you know, and in order to do that, you have to, like, you know, calm yourself, learn how to, like, ground. I do a lot of work in the beginning of the course about, you know, visualizations of grounding and being kind of that rock, that container, that kind of masculine energy. And when men start to understand that, then they can respond in a different way. Right. They’re not as reactive, they’re not as explosive.

jonathan brajtbord [00:22:19]:
They can choose how they respond. And I think that’s a huge thing for, for them in their life.

Betsy [00:22:24]:
Yeah, I love that. And I think, you know, you said something about how them actually just taking the step to get in the program. Like, I always think that, too, with the women. Like, they’re at this, like, precipice when we’re on the phone, right. They set an appointment with me and they do with you because they want something different. But when they’re at the precipice, it’s a very specific kind of person who’s willing to, like, take that step and choose themselves because I always feel like it’s, they’re not choosing me or not choosing me. They’re choosing them. It can be a scary thing.

Betsy [00:22:57]:
It’s a special kind of person that does it well.

jonathan brajtbord [00:22:59]:
It’s super scary. It’s super vulnerable, right. Because you’re kind of acknowledging, number one, that things aren’t as good as you thought they were. Right. And you’re putting yourself out there to do some of the work to begin to shift those things and like, oh, my God, what if this, this and this. And this happens, right? What if I have to leave my partner? What happens if I have to step away? All these kind of cascade of events that, you know, start to take place in their mind, and that’s that kind of fear of failure or fear of rejection that people kind of holds people back.

Betsy [00:23:31]:
Do you think men come to you because they’re unhappy in their marriage, or do they come to you because they just don’t feel fulfilled in their life?

jonathan brajtbord [00:23:38]:
They. Most of the time, they use their relationship. The relationship is really kind of the thing that gets them there.

Betsy [00:23:43]:
Yeah, it’s the mirror, right?

jonathan brajtbord [00:23:45]:
Yeah, it’s the mirror, right? Or, like, you know, because I have. I have men. Whenever, you know, we have men do. Whenever we do the online course, I have men, like, fill out a little bit of, like, a questionnaire, like, you know, why they’re here on this stuff.

Betsy [00:23:54]:
Yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:23:55]:
And I would say 80% of the time, it’s, they want a better marriage. They want a better relationship, which is actually really beautiful like, that.

Betsy [00:24:01]:
They’re.

jonathan brajtbord [00:24:02]:
They’re seeking more of connection. But what they miss and what I help them understand is you can’t have a better relationship and marriage until you have a better relationship with yourself first has to start here, and that’s. That’s the way to then go on and get a better relationship or marriage.

Betsy [00:24:18]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. So, good. What. What. What question haven’t I asked that you feel like, I really want people to know this? Don’t you hate it when people. Whenever I’m on a podcast and someone asks that, I’m like, why are you putting me on the spot? You didn’t even tell me you were gonna say this.

jonathan brajtbord [00:24:33]:
No, I mean, um, you know, I think, well, the hardest thing, and I don’t have an answer for it, it’s like, how do you convince men of the value in this work? Right? So, like, yeah, that is the hardest part. Right? I have. You know, I have women message me, you know, all the time asking, well, how do I convince my partner to do this work? How do I convince him that this is important? And the reality is, you can’t. Right. I mean, I’m sure you see this in the work with the women. You can’t convince anybody that they need this work. Right. What I try to always explain to them is, like, show them the emotion behind the desire.

jonathan brajtbord [00:25:11]:
Right? Explain to them the emotion behind the desire for a deeper connection. What are your actually feelings behind it? Because I do feel like that most men can relate to their partner’s emotional bodies and like, that tends to soften them a little bit. At least it softens me when Sarah access those emotions and I’m able to relate to those requests on that level.

Betsy [00:25:34]:
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I like that. I think you’re right. Like, we can’t make anybody do anything right. We can only do things for ourselves, change ourselves. But I do think when we change, then other people change around us because they have to. And I think if somebody’s listening and you really want your partner to find out more about this, you know, send them the show, for one thing, have them listen. Be like, I want you to have.

Betsy [00:25:56]:
Listen to Doctor Jonathan. And I think, too, is that really being vulnerable? Like, I want you to be vulnerable, so I have to be vulnerable in order to request that. And I think there’s something really powerful. You know, this is so silly and probably not totally related, but I said to my husband, he comes in and he puts his briefcase on the kitchen table, but that’s where we eat. And, like, where you’re, you know, he’s an attorney, so he’s in prison sometime. Like, I’m like, where’s the briefcase? And I don’t know, but I know when I eat my dinner, I think about where it’s been. So I said to him, you know, can you move? Can you not put your suit, your briefcase there? And he said, yeah, but, you know, the next day it was there, and the next day it was there. Not because he was trying to ruin my life, but because he just was a habit, and the table’s right there and it’s convenient.

Betsy [00:26:47]:
And so I said to him, can I just share something with you? I said, if you love me. That’s really what I said. If you love me, you will just listen to this request. But I want to tell you why. Because I hadn’t told him why, but I really said, like, when I just, like, when I sit down with you and I want to be able to eat and not feel like, you know, it sounds so silly, but just being really open about why and what I was feeling and what I was thinking about when we were. It’s not been on the table since.

jonathan brajtbord [00:27:19]:
There you go.

Betsy [00:27:20]:
Not once.

jonathan brajtbord [00:27:21]:
Yeah, because you express your emotion to it. Right. You explain the underlying feeling behind it.

Betsy [00:27:26]:
Instead of saying, like, get your thing up. I mean, I tried that, but it doesn’t work, right?

jonathan brajtbord [00:27:32]:
It doesn’t work. No. And I think, you know, women never change, tend to never change their strategy. They just get more and more frustrated with it.

Betsy [00:27:39]:
That’s the thing. Yes. And then all of a sudden you’re a nag. Right. But you’re going about it the wrong way. Yeah, correct.

jonathan brajtbord [00:27:45]:
So I think really connecting with the emotion behind is great. I mean, Sarah used to do something similar with me, right? So, like, I would come home dressed in, like, whatever I was seeing patients in the office, and, like, she could feel all of the patients, all of the hospital, all the office on me. And she’s like, can you change? And I was like, you know, first I was like, you know, fine, whatever. But then I got out of the habit. I kind of defaulted back into just coming home, like, trying to dive into the. To work. And it wasn’t until she again explained that she wanted to connect with me. Leave the office in the office and leave the hospital there.

jonathan brajtbord [00:28:16]:
You know, we kind of get to what’s actually underneath the requests.

Betsy [00:28:19]:
Yeah, yeah. I love that. I love that. So people can send people this podcast, but tell them how they can find you. And I’ll have all of this in the show notes, too, but just tell them in case they’re just listening.

jonathan brajtbord [00:28:30]:
Awesome. So, yeah, so my Instagram handle is Jonathan Breitboard, which will spell for you below because it’s very.

Betsy [00:28:36]:
I’m going to spell it right now because I want people to know this is not easy. But also, if you’ve been here a while, I want you to be so proud of me for really saying the name right. Because, you know, I have a thing with this. It’s breitboard, but it’s spelled bratjtbrajt and then b o r d. I like it, though. It’s a little different.

jonathan brajtbord [00:28:57]:
It’s very different.

Betsy [00:28:59]:
Okay, so tell them again. So the whole Instagram handle is Jonathan.

jonathan brajtbord [00:29:02]:
Breitboard, and then my website is Jonathan Breitboard.com. and there you can find links to the menswear course, which is that seven week online course. Again, we’re also running fortitude, which is our three day retreat coming up. We have a date in October and then a date in February. So those are coming up. And so that’s kind of how you can read about me and my story. I’m very transparent about the journey that I’ve been on and kind of the trials and tribulations that I’ve had with Sarah, with my wife, and kind of who I am today and what I kind of stand for.

Betsy [00:29:32]:
So I love it. And if you guys are listening to this and you’re like, oh, well, this was, this is an old episode. This was recorded last year. You can go to your website, right? And just get on your mail list, and then when things open up and get on the mail list as a woman, and then when it opens up, then you can start dropping hints to whoever needs to have the hints, right. Then you can be ready.

jonathan brajtbord [00:29:54]:
There you go. It’s funny, I just had a conversation with a woman about, like, you know, dropping the hints and things like that, you know, I think dropping the hints are one way to do it. I think the other way to do it.

Betsy [00:30:04]:
Be direct.

jonathan brajtbord [00:30:05]:
Be direct. Right. But again, it’s. It’s not like I want you to do this. It’s like I’m desiring this. Right? I’m desiring a deeper connection. I think this is one way for us to get there. And, like, it’s us, right? It’s not yet there.

jonathan brajtbord [00:30:18]:
It’s us to get there.

Betsy [00:30:20]:
Yeah. Yeah. And I want you to consider, like, I think, yeah, that’s, you know. Yeah, yeah.

jonathan brajtbord [00:30:26]:
Because Sarah used to, all the time, she would, like, leave me a book and be like, here, read this, or, like, you know, do this, do that. And, like, again, for a man, at least for me, it felt very demasculating. Right? It’s like I couldn’t. I didn’t have agency over my own self, like, make my own decisions. And so when Sarah took a step back but trusted me to kind of do that work and try to, you know, have the resources that are there, and I’m the resource. I’m the resource for a lot of men.

Betsy [00:30:49]:
So, yeah, I. Yeah, that’s good. This is great. Thank you so much for taking time and coming on the show. Now when everybody messages me, I know right where to send them. So I appreciate you, and thanks for being here.

jonathan brajtbord [00:31:01]:
Thanks for having me.

Betsy [00:31:05]:
Hey, thanks so much for listening to today’s show, and thank you for sharing the show with your friends. I love when you guys do that. I appreciate it so much. And thank you for leaving me a review on iTunes. I know that it matters because when I go to find a podcast, I always look to see what the reviews are. So it really means a lot to me that you take a minute to, like, figure out how to even make that happen. Now, if you want to find me, find me on social media. I’m usually on Instagram, starting out on TikTok.

Betsy [00:31:35]:
It’s just my name, Betsy Paik. And that’s my website, too, betsypake.com. and you can find out all about the work that I do, having me speak for an event that you might be helping to plan or getting trained inside my alchemy institute. But to make it really easy, if you want me, just shoot me a DM. Shoot me a direct message on Instagram and I will be at your service. Thanks again for listening and I will see you all next week.