Eosinophilic Fasciitis (EF), with Dr. Catherine Sims and Jason Ingraham

Real Talk: Eosinophilic Diseases

Description:

Co-hosts Ryan Piansky, a graduate student and patient advocate living with eosinophilic esophagitis (EoE) and eosinophilic asthma, and Holly Knotowicz, a speech-language pathologist living with EoE who serves on APFED’s Health Sciences Advisory Council, interview Jason Ingraham, an adult living with eosinophilic fasciitis (EF), and Dr. Catherine Sims, a rheumatologist at Duke University and a Health Services Research Fellow at the Durham Veterans’ Affairs Hospital. They discuss Jason’s experiences living with EF and Dr. Sims’s experience treating EF. They share Jason’s journey to diagnosis and the importance of working with a group of specialists. They share tips on medication and physical therapy, how to communicate with your medical team, and manage your activity and mindset.

Disclaimer: The information provided in this podcast is designed to support, not replace the relationship that exists between listeners and their healthcare providers. Opinions, information, and recommendations shared in this podcast are not a substitute for medical advice. Decisions related to medical care should be made with your healthcare provider. Opinions and views of guests and co-hosts are their own.

Key Takeaways:

[:50] Ryan Piansky introduces the episode, brought to you thanks to the support of Education Partners Bristol Myers Squibb, GSK, Sanofi, and Regeneron, and co-host, Holly Knotowicz.

[1:14] Holly introduces today’s topic, eosinophilic fasciitis, with guests, Jason Ingraham and Dr. Catherine Sims.

[1:25] Jason is an adult living with eosinophilic fasciitis (EF). Dr. Sims is a rheumatologist at Duke University and a Health Services Research Fellow at the Durham Veterans’ Affairs Hospital.

[1:52] Dr. Sims explains what EF is. Patients may present with symptoms of large plaques on their skin, edema of arms and legs, Raynaud’s Phenomenon, contractures of arms or legs, limited mobility, or loss of the ability to do tasks they used to do.

[2:42] EF, as with most eosinophilic disorders, doesn't follow the textbook. Some people will present with one symptom and some with multiple symptoms. There is a disconnect between how we diagnose conditions like EF and how patients present.

[3:01] There are major and minor criteria for the diagnosis. As in Jason’s case, it takes time for the symptoms to present. Things develop over time. It took multiple specialists to diagnose Jason.

[3:38] Eosinophilic conditions are incredibly different from each other. When Dr. Sims sees a patient with high eosinophils, she thinks of three major buckets: infection, autoimmune diseases, and cancer.

[4:12] Patients will often see many different specialists. In Jason’s case, they had done a skin biopsy that wasn’t as helpful as they hoped. That led him to get a deep muscle biopsy to collect the lining of the muscle.

[4:47] Fasciitis is the inflammation of the muscle lining or fascia. A sample of the fascia can demonstrate under the microscope if there is a thickening, swelling, or inflammation of the lining of the muscle.

[5:24] Dr. Sims as a rheumatologist treats a number of rare diseases. Eosinophilic fasciitis is an ultra-rare disease.

[5:43] Jason had a local primary care doctor and a rheumatologist who both did a really good job and referred him to Dr. Sims. She had the benefit of their hard work to guide her next steps. Because EF is so rare, she has pitched Jason’s case twice in rheumatology grand rounds sessions.

[6:18] During one of these sessions, Dr. Sims was advised to get the fascial biopsy that ultimately led to the diagnosis. She benefited from the intelligence and input of dozens of doctors.

[6:59] In the Fall of 2022, while hiking on vacation with his wife, Jason was extremely fatigued, and his forearms and lower legs swelled. His socks left deep impressions. It was difficult to reach his feet to put socks on. He spent a lot of time uncharacteristically resting.

[8:09] Jason’s primary care doctor ran lots of blood tests. He thought it might be a tick bite. Jason started seeing specialists, having tests and hospital visits.

[8:57] Jason worked with a rheumatologist in Wilmington, an infectious disease doctor, and a hematologist/oncologist who reached out to a Duke expert. He also saw a pulmonologist and a dermatologist. He got the referral to Dr. Sims for March of 2023.

[9:57] The first diagnosis Jason received was after his first hospital stay in January of 2023, when he had bone marrow biopsies, CT scans, ultrasound, and other tests. He was deemed to have idiopathic hypereosinophilic syndrome (IHES).

[10:30] It was only a few weeks before his local rheumatologist said his panels were back and one tipped it from an IHES diagnosis to eosinophilic granulomatosis with polyangiitis (EGPA). He joined the Vasculitis Foundation and researched EGPA.

[11:03] Dr. Sims told Jason that EGPA was a working diagnosis but he didn’t check all the boxes. There was the underlying thought that maybe it was something else. He had a second flare when he came off of prednisone in June of 2023.

[11:48] Dr. Sims scheduled Jason for a muscle biopsy while he was off steroids. That’s how he got the diagnosis of eosinophilic fasciitis (EF). Jason says the disorder is hard for him to pronounce and he can barely spell the words.

[12:52] Jason’s wife Michelle encouraged Jason to track his symptoms and medications and keep track of data. Going from specialist to specialist, the first thing he did was give the history.

[13:31] Jason found it helpful to create a spreadsheet of data with blood test results, meds, how he was feeling each day, his weight, and even notes about when he had difficulty putting his socks on. Jason is an advocate of owning your continuity of care as you see different doctors.

[14:42] Jason says the doctors at Duke talk very well between themselves.

[14:49] Jason likes to look back at that spreadsheet and see how far he’s come, looking at the dosage he was on during and after flares and the dosage he’s on now, or zero, on some of the medications. That’s a little bit of a victory.

[15:16] Holly works at a private hospital without Epic or CareEverywhere so she gives physical notes to her patients to give to their doctors. She comments that a great PCP, like the one Jason had, can make all the difference in the world.

[16:18] Jason’s PCP, Dr. Cosgrove, referred Jason to Duke for a second opinion. That was where he met Dr. Sims. He’s glad to have both Dr. Sims and his PCP accessible.

[17:35] Jason says the number of questions you have with this type of thing is immense. When you look up EF, you find very little and the literature isn’t easily digestible by patients. Being able to reach out to your doctors for a quick question is super helpful.

[17:56] Jason has been able to do telehealth follow-ups and not always have to travel or take off work, which has been extremely helpful. He has been at Duke a good handful of times for various things but remote follow-ups are helpful.

[18:52] Dr. Sims says people just don’t know about EF as it is an ultra-rare diagnosis. Even physicians don’t understand what causes it. It’s lumped in with all other eosinophilic conditions but these disorders don’t all present the same way.

[19:19] EoE doesn’t look like EF, even though they’re both driven by the same immune cells. Dr. Sims says the first need is educating providers and patients on what the diagnosis is; awareness in general when a patient is having this swelling of extremities.

[19:44] Dr. Sims says at his baseline, Jason is very active with multi-mile hikes. When Dr. Sims met him, he was off from the baseline of what he was able to do. Being aware of your baseline and changes from that is very informative for doctors.

[20:07] Dr. Sims talks about the patient being a liaison between multiple specialists. Bringing data to your subspecialist always helps facilitate care and come up with a bigger picture of what’s happening.

[20:23] Jason first went to Dr. Sims with the diagnosis of EGPA. She said, let’s treat the EGPA and see what happens but they kept an open mind. With ultra-rare diseases, sometimes it’s difficult for patients not to have a label for their condition.

[20:45] Dr. Sims explains to her patients that sometimes we live in the discomfort of not having a label. She keeps an open mind and doesn’t limit herself to just one diagnosis. She seeks feedback from providers who have seen this before and know what works.

[21:07] Just as Jason described, you will go through multiple diagnoses. Is this cancer? Is it a parasitic infection? Where did you travel? You will see many subspecialists. It’s extremely anxiety-provoking.

[21:31] When Dr. Sims did her grand rounds, she gave a third of the presentation, and the other two thirds were presented by an infectious disease doctor and a hematologist. In these cases, you need more than one subspecialist to complete the workup.

[22:10] Dr. Sims says there are a lot of misconceptions that the patient will get the diagnosis right away and the right therapy and get better. There are multiple therapies, not just medications. There are lifestyle and work modifications; it’s a gradual process.

[22:22] One of Dr. Sims’s goals for Jason and Michelle is to get back to doing the things that they enjoy, tennis and hiking. That’s a measurement of the quality of life that a patient has.

[22:34] Talking to your doctors about how you’re feeling and how you’re functioning is huge. It may be that this is your new normal, but it may also be that we can make adjustments to maximize your quality of life.

[23:00] There are misconceptions about the journey of diagnosis and treatment. Have a close relationship with your subspecialist. PCPs have a high burden of expectations. As a rheumatologist who treats rare diseases, it’s helpful to take on a part of that burden.

[22:31] If you don’t have good communication with your providers and they aren’t listening to you, you can always go get another opinion. The provider relationship is life-long.

[23:43] It’s important for your provider to take what’s important to you into consideration when they make treatment decisions.

[25:00] As a rheumatologist, steroids are a first-line therapy for Dr. Sims. Their role is the quick control of inflammation. The goal is always to get you off of the steroids as soon as possible, in the safest way possible.

[25:17] When Jason came to Dr. Sims, he was on mepolizumab for the working diagnosis of EGPA. Mepolizumab is one of the primary therapies for EGPA. They talked about not making treatment changes as they were navigating what was happening.

[25:40] They didn’t want to make a change of medication and then have that be mistaken for disease activity. They didn’t want too many variables moving at once.

[25:47] Typically, the first-line therapy is steroids, meant to help with the swelling, pain, and tightness that patients will get lining their muscles and give them a bit more functionality and decreased pain.

[26:00] Long-term, Dr. Sims gives immunosuppressant medication. She prescribed methotrexate for Jason. In EF, the immune system is overly activated, attacking the lining of the muscles and causing the symptoms.

[26:51] If you suppress the immune system activity, that leads to decreased inflammation and symptoms in the patient. Steroid use, over a few months, is detrimental, with low bone density, weight gain, high blood pressure, and diabetes.

[27:14] Dr. Sims starts with prednisone and folds in medications like mycophenolate or methotrexate.

[27:19] Mepolizumab is an interleukin 5 blocker. Interleukin 5 is part of the immune system and is necessary for eosinophils to grow, function, and multiply. The goal of using mepolizumab is to lower the eosinophils that are contributing to the disease symptoms.

[27:48] Methotrexate, prednisone, and mepolizumab can work synergistically or independently. Most rheumatologists start with methotrexate or mycophenolate which have fewer side effects and have been around longer. We know how to manage those.

[28:08] If there is no response, we may add something like mepolizumab. As Jason was already on mepolizumab, Dr. Sims added methotrexate.

[28:20] IVIG, an infusion of immunoglobulin, has also been used as a quick way to control inflammation. It is used in other autoimmune diseases like myositis, which is inflammation of the muscle itself.

[29:08] With untreated eosinophilic fasciitis, the lining of the muscle may continue to be inflamed and can lead to fibrosis, damage that cannot be reversed. The patient can become very disabled. Contracture is one result of this.

[30:16] Jason says when he tried a new medication, he monitored if it was a good fit and if the side effects were less impactful than the underlying disease. Dr. Sims adjusted his dosages or tried to get off certain medicines as needed.

[30:59] After his muscle biopsy from his left calf, it took about a month to get back to walking easily. He was already in physical therapy, going many times for a variety of things. He had back pain, potentially related to his EF. His physical therapist was great.

[31:56] The stretches alternated between upper and lower body. Jason bought tools to do the stretches at home. When he’s not feeling as well, he goes back to some of those same stretches. When he was on steroids, he took long walks to strengthen his bones.

[32:39] Jason started making phone calls to supportive family and friends on his walks and started listening to podcasts related to his condition or medications. Getting back to tennis and hiking is important to Jason. He’s happy to be out there.

[33:20] Jason was open with his employer about his condition. Some of the weekly meds can make him not feel well. His employer gives him some flexibility. He has good days that far outnumber the bad days. He doesn’t have to think about EF too much now.

[34:33] It’s nothing like when he was in a flare, especially when he was in a flare before being diagnosed. What gets him through a bad day is giving himself some grace and understanding while he waits for his meds to catch up. He rests more than he wants to.

[35:33] Low-impact exercises like walking help Jason. He’s trying to find a support network that gets EF. That led him to APFED, to find anyone experiencing something like what he was. He saw a conference that included a session on EF.

[36:09] Jason signed up for the conference and there he met Ryan’s mother who has EF. They were each the first person the other had met with EF. They decided to connect after the conference. They talked on the phone for about an hour.

[36:39] She told Jason how she got into APFED and talked a lot about her son who had eosinophilic diseases. Soon after, Jason talked to Ryan as a primer for this podcast.

[38:15] Having a community to relate to, even if it’s one person, is massive. It can make you feel less isolated.

[38:42] Holly says it’s hard having a chronic illness. She thanks both Jason and Dr. Sims for sharing so much information and their journey and she asks for last words.

[38:58] Dr. Sims believes finding a community is critical. She interviews a lot of patients for research and isolation is a frequent theme. Even the doctor doesn’t know what it’s like to live with the condition you live with daily. As Jason said, give yourself grace.

[39:33] Dr. Sims tells her patients that they’re different from the general population because they have to spend so much time and energy managing their condition that they can’t do x, y, or z today, and that is OK. She says to stay motivated and positive.

[40:12] Find what works for you. Walking is good for your physical and mental health. Have the goal of getting back to what makes you happy. Take initiative and find non-medication ways to recuperate. You have control over ways you can feel better.

[40:43] Connect with others and share your story, like Jason did today. It may make someone’s journey a little easier and make them feel less alone. Utilize your condition for good, for a bigger purpose.

[41:04] Jason had wished he could meet someone who could tell him what EF would be like over the years. He says to stay positive and find out what you have control over. Jason believes the future is bright for being able to do many things for a long time.

[42:26] For our listeners who would like to learn more about eosinophilic fasciitis, please visit APFED.org and check out the links in the shownotes.

[42:33] If you’re looking to find a specialist who treats eosinophilic disorders, like Dr. Sims, you can use APFED’s Specialist Finder at APFED.org/specialist.

[42:43] If you'd like to connect with others impacted by eosinophilic diseases, please join APFED’s online community on the Inspire Network at APFED.org/connections/.

[42:55] Ryan thanks Jason and Dr. Sims for joining us for this excellent conversation. Holly also thanks APFED’s Education Partners Bristol Myers Squibb, GSK, Sanofi, and Regeneron for supporting this episode.

Mentioned in This Episode:

Dr. Catherine Sims, rheumatologist

Duke University Hospital

Durham VA Medical Center

APFED on YouTube, Twitter, Facebook, Pinterest, Instagram

Real Talk: Eosinophilic Diseases Podcast

apfed.org/specialist

apfed.org/connections

Education Partners: This episode of APFED’s podcast is brought to you thanks to the support of Bristol Myers Squibb, GSK, Sanofi, and Regeneron.

Tweetables:

“EF patients may present with large plaques on their skin, edema of arms and legs, Raynaud’s Phenomenon, contractures of arms or legs, limited mobility, or loss of the ability to do tasks they used to do.” — Dr. Catherine Sims

“Steroids are … first-line therapy. Their role is the quick control of inflammation. The goal is always to get you off steroids as soon as possible, in the safest way possible.” — Dr. Catherine Sims

“Methotrexate, prednisone, and mepolizumab can work synergistically or independently. Most rheumatologists start with methotrexate or mycophenolate which have fewer side effects and have been around longer.” — Dr. Catherine Sims

“Stay positive and find out what you have control over. The future is bright for being able to do many things for a long time.” — Jason Ingraham