Climate and Community with Mike Durglo, Jr.

Headwaters

A conversation with Mike Durglo, Jr., climate coordinator and head of Historic Preservation for the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes. This episode was recorded in September of 2023.

Glacier Conservancy: https://glacier.org/headwaters Frank Waln music: https://www.instagram.com/frankwaln/ Stella Nall art: https://www.instagram.com/stella.nall/

CSKT Climate Resiliency: http://csktclimate.org/

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TRANSCRIPT:

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Lacy Kowalski: Headwaters is supported by the Glacier National Park Conservancy.

Peri Sasnett: Welcome to Headwaters, a show from Glacier National Park, which is the traditional homelands of many Indigenous groups that still live in this area today. This episode is an interview we did with Mike Durglo Jr, who's a climate leader at the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes. We talked about how Native American tribes can lead the way through the climate crisis. This episode is part of a series of conversations we've been having with a wide variety of climate change experts. These episodes don't have to be listened to in any order; each one stands on its own. And they all focus on a particular aspect of the way the world is being altered by the burning of fossil fuels over the past century and a half, human activity has released enough greenhouse gases to warm the Earth's climate over one degree Celsius, with only more warming on the way. [subtle beat begins to play] Throughout 2023, Daniel sat down with experts to talk about how that warming is altering Glacier National Park, our lives and our futures. It's critical to remember that Glacier has been a home for people since time immemorial. This has never been an empty landscape. It has been loved and cared for by people for thousands of years. And to find our way through the next century, we'll need to have a lot more conversations like this one. [synth beat contines to play, then resolves]

Mike Durglo, Jr: I call myself a seed planter because just giving people hope.

Daniel Lombardi: Thanks for joining us, and can you introduce yourself?

Mike: Thank you. [Introduces himself in Salish] Good morning, everybody. My name is Standing Grizzly Bear. That's my given name. My English name or my [speaks Salish] name is Mike Durglo. Currently, I'm the department head for the Tribal Historic Preservation Department for the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes. Working for the tribes for, it was 40 years.

Daniel: Wow. Yeah. Congrats. That's pretty amazing. And so that's just down west, southwest of the park, so one of the park's neighbors. Yeah, well, yeah. Give. Give me an overview, then, of what are the climate change impacts that you're seeing on the Flathead reservation, what you're seeing in this area.

Mike: You know, you think about the air quality and what's what's been happening, and even even this year, earlier smoke. I mean, it was early. A few years ago I was driving to my office to work, and there was so much smoke that I couldn't even see the mountains. I live right there, you know, at the base of of the mountains at McDonald Peak, and my office was only like eight miles from my house. But I'm thinking, my grandson had doubles this morning, football practice, double practices. And I'm thinking, I hope that those kids are not outside playing, you know, practicing for football right now in this.

Daniel: Because the air is so toxic.

Mike: Right. And, you know, it was not just the kids, but the elders, and the people that are most vulnerable to the all the smoke. And so we had I don't remember if it was the the Earth Day event that you came to, but it was one of our gatherings where Dr. Lori Byron and her husband attended that. Anyway, I talked about that. I told I shared that story and I shared my concern for the people being out in that smoke. And a few months later, Dr. Byron calls me and says, Mike, would you be interested in putting up some Purple Air monitors? I said, Heck yeah. I didn't really, you know, I was like, So what do we do? And I don't know if you're familiar with them, but they're only about this big, they're inexpensive and they measure PM 2.5 air quality, and they give you real time data. So she sent me seven monitors. We're putting them up around the reservation at seven schools. They have a what's called a flag program that you can, the kids can put out a flag. So if it's a bad air day, they can put out a red flag. If it's a good day, it's the green flag. And there's all these different ones in the middle. And just this year we're putting up I don't remember how many, 14 more? We're going to put them in, inside and outside.

Daniel: So that's great. Yeah. And so that's a kind of climate adaptation, the dealing with air quality, which can be degraded by just burning fossil fuels and cars and stuff. Around here, it's often caused by wildfire, which itself is exacerbated and expanded by climate change.

Mike: Our fire seasons have shifted. So here what we've seen over the last, I don't know, several years is later wildfires burning later in the season. So we're still fighting wildfires in October and November when the fire season used to, you know, go of like from August to September maybe. So climate change isn't the only thing that that messed up there. We we did too, as human beings. I mean, you're all familiar with that one guy, what did he say? [does a silly, deep voice] "Only you can prevent wildfires."

Daniel: Smokey the Bear. [both laugh]

Mike: Yeah. Smokey the Bear is like... A hundred years of fire suppression has not helped. Mhm. To speak. I was invited to speak about historic use of fire on the land. Mm hmm. As you read in some of Lewis and Clark's journals of, you know, walking through this beautiful plains with grass up to their shoulders and it's like that didn't happen all by itself. Mhm. That happened from the tribes living on the land for those thousands of years and you know, using fire as a tool. We didn't follow the bison around, the bison followed where we burned. Mhm.

Daniel: Because the grass would grow back greener.

Mike: We burned those areas and then the bison would go back to those areas and feed. So that it made us easier to hunt. So, you know, a thousand years of that understanding how the land works, it's so, you know, you go back to fire suppression and the way it is now. Climate change plus fire suppression equals catastrophic wildfires. [synth beat marks a transition]

Mike: We were one of the first tribes, right, in the United States to develop a climate strategy. That was back in 2012. My boss and my boss's boss, you know, they were asked several times about what is the tribe's stance, what is the tribe doing about climate change? What are you guys actually doing? And at the time I was the Environmental Director, and I was also the chairman of the RTOC, the Regional Tribal Operations Committee, that's region eight tribes. There's like 17 tribes in Region Eight: North and South Dakota, Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, Utah.

Daniel: Why do you think it's important to start with a plan? Like was that always automatic, you knew like, the first step is to create a climate plan?

Mike: Whatever agency it is, it don't matter if it's a tribe or the city or the county or federal agency, all of the different programs focus on a certain aspect. There's fisheries, there's wildlife. They're focused on whatever their media is there. So really, I feel like, and this might be hindsight, right? I feel like the whole process ended up bringing all of us in a in a tighter circle. When when I was asked to coordinate that effort, I wanted ours to be more comprehensive. And we had nine sectors. So air, water, fisheries, wildlife, forestry, people. And also I wanted to make sure that we included traditional knowledge. My dad was really a big support. He was actually the department head for Tribal Historic Preservation when I was the Environmental Director. So he he contributed a lot to that plan. And I always say that one of the most awesome parts of that process was interviewing my elders. So I did eight interviews, and my dad being one of those, and those are all available on that website and you can watch those. And I wanted to make sure that we we very much included traditional cultural knowledge within the planning effort.

Daniel: One of the reasons I'm super interested to talk to you about this is because Glacier National Park, we're in the process of trying to write a climate action plan. So I think what you said about how the importance of a plan early on, at least looking back, was that it brought everyone together and got everyone to kind of get on the same page. Did you find that like people were ready for that or like, was there anyone resistant to like, "Oh, this is going to add more work to me" or anything like that?

Mike: When I started doing climate change work it's like, when people saw Mike Durglo coming down the hall, they would slam their door and lock it and pull their shade because they knew that Mike was going to come and ask them to do more work. I mean, they're already busy. They're already doing their their full time work in their field. And I come along and say, "Hey, I need you to come to our meeting because we're talking about impacts of climate change on fisheries" or whatever. They were already doing climate change work without calling it climate change.

Daniel: Yeah, climate change is one of those things that so often it seems like it's adding on to... It's not even always creating new challenges, but it's also often just like a layer on top of a heavy workload that already exists.

Mike: It's more work. I've been doing, you know, my job as the Environmental Director at the time plus climate. It's really something that you have to be passionate and compassionate about. So the reason I wanted to rewrite the plan was based on that newer evidence, the projections or the the science that we were looking at in 2012 was conservative. Yeah, you know, we had hope. "Yeah. Everybody's going to understand us. Everybody's going to going to get it. That things are changing, that we're we need to start looking at alternative fuel sources and alternative energy and all that stuff, and everybody's going to jump on board." That hasn't happened.

Daniel: So let me recap some of that. It was about ten years ago now, 2012, you all released the your climate plan. And now looking back, it looks a little conservative. It looks a little too optimistic. And we've seen the impacts of climate change, that were predicted back then, we've seen them come to pass much sooner than predicted. And so now you're working on updating, creating a new plan. And it seems clear to me that the CSKT, and you in particular, have been leaders nationally in terms of developing a climate action plan, especially leaders in helping and working with other tribes on their climate plans. Does that feel right?

Mike: Oh, absolutely. In fact, back in 2016, I received an award from President Obama. I got to go to the White House. And that award was for leadership in climate change. It's not that I do what I do to get an award or a pat on or anything like that, but it was very honoring. You know, I was honored and humbled to be there. And that was just for the work I've been doing to help other tribes like Blackfeet, Fort Belknap, the Crows. I've helped different tribes and even up into Canada. [synth beat plays to mark a transition]

Daniel: Climate change is impacting, you know, every sector of the wheel of life, as you were describing it, including people and cultural resources. So maybe let's get into that. What is a cultural resource?

Mike: A resource could be a culturally modified tree or a rock cairn, or a fire pit, historical fire pit. Or, I mean, a lot of those are associated with campsites, right? So those resources, like culturally modified trees, how do you protect that from climate change? Mm hmm. In our database and in Glacier National Park's database, we have identified over 300 cultural sites or resources.

Daniel: So to zoom out for a second, you worked on a project where you identified cultural sites and resources, which are basically any evidence or significant item or place that was used by or is used by members of the Confederated Salish and Kootenai Tribes, either today or

Mike: Yeah, sure.

Daniel: Thousands of years into the past. And so you're identifying those objects. Sometimes they're trees that were modified or used by people, sometimes they're campsites, sometimes they're actual artifacts, sometimes they're just spots and places. And so then you're looking at, how is climate change potentially going to impact these specific resources?

Mike: So I'm going to give you an example of of potential impact to a site that's along a stream, and that is another historic campsite. Well, what's happening at that campsite is the banks of the stream are eroding. Mm hmm. And it's I mean, you know, that's a natural process. But however, what we're seeing is increased runoff in, you know, that -- what we like to see is gradual runoff. Right? Right. In the spring, we want the snow to gradually come out of the mountains, causing minimal damage or minimal erosion. But what's happening is it comes crashing down. Like what we're seeing is that snow melt in an accelerated time period, and all that water comes crashing down the side of the mountain. Well that's causing increased erosion in that certain site, not just that site, but all the different sites along the streams. So we look at what what can we do using Western science to mitigate or to help with the process of slowing that erosion. So we come up with a list of maybe four alternatives: we can put riprap into that site; we can move some of those artifacts that are around the site or in and around the site; one alternative might be do nothing. And that's the things that we present to the elders. And and the elders could say, we don't want you around that site. We want we don't want you doing nothing there. We want you just to leave it and let the natural process take place. So those are the kind of things that we looked at in that project, that pilot project, as far as climate impacts to those cultural sites.

Daniel: And you found there's lots of sites, significant sites in the park in Glacier National Park. And would you say that they're fairly secure and safe, or would you say that there's a lot of threats to those cultural sites?

Mike: It's not just the Confederate Salish and Kootenai Tribes that utilize Glacier National Park. Mm hmm. It was a common use area for a lot of tribes, as you know. Mm hmm. Blackfeet, the Kootenai Bands from Canada, different Blackfeet, Ktunaxa, Piikani bands from Canada, Blood Tribes, and us, used Glacier National Park for millennia.

Daniel: So all these different groups, all these different tribes have connections and cultural sites and cultural artifacts and significant connections to areas in the park. Do you feel like those are fairly safe or is climate change threatening them significantly?

Mike: I think that's part of the process that we wanted to look at when we did this pilot project.

Daniel: You have to figure it out.

Mike: Yeah. In the work that I've done, pretty much all of my career in natural resources, you start out with a base study, right? What do we have, and how how is it potentially impacted? We know that a lot of these sites are pretty safe, but they're all being impacted by climate change and people.

Daniel: What I'm hearing you say is that monitoring and studying and paying attention to how these sites are being impacted by climate change, that's sort of where we're at in the process now is being vigilant. [synth beat marks a transition]

Daniel: Do you feel like tribes across the country are-- how do you think they're facing climate change as as the impacts are accelerating? Do you think they're kind of poised to be leaders and everyone's got a plan kind of ready, or are the tribes struggling to catch up, or is it some of both?

Mike: Yeah, I think it's some of both, really. I think the tribes, the connection that we have with Mother Earth and I'm not saying everybody doesn't have this, but we've lived on the landscape for thousands of years on this landscape, Glacier National Park, the Flathead Valley. And it's all included. You know, we've we've been here for thousands of years. So really, we we understand not so much anymore. I don't think maybe that's one of the things we need to do is reconnect reconnect to the land. Because I, I remember stories from my grandparents and my parents talking about how people really, back then listened to the land, and almost like had a conversation with the land. And it's like they knew by looking at different things on the landscape what kind of winter we're going to have, or what kind of summer or, you know, any the stuff like that. So I feel like we really need to to have that connection and, you know, in order to feel the pain or whatever that we're causing Mother Earth. In order for us to survive, we have to reconnect to that circle. We can't take ourselves out of it. Above it or below it. We are part of it. Mm hmm. So. And I just feel that that's one of the commonalities that tribes have across the whole world is that connectedness. And I know you know, I'm just not saying that, you know, tribal people have that connection. Every nationality -- I don't care if you're French, German, Korean. Everybody has that. My ancestors are buried right here in this ground. That's how you walk every day in your life. And that's like a respect that you realize that these this is where my ancestors are buried. So then you have to walk in beauty to keep those ancestors happy. Mm hmm. And that's right here in Glacier National Park.

Daniel: You were describing this important connection to our earth, to the environment around us, and that everyone can have that, it's a matter of sensitivity. And. And, yeah, learning from your elders. And during the climate planning process, you were able to interview your elders. And I'm curious what you learned from them. You know, that was that you were able to really ask them about that connection to the earth and noticing when the wheel is out of balance, notice that our climate is changing. So were there some clear lessons for you after interviewing that your elders?

Mike: You know, a lot of the those elders talked about how it used to be. My dad talked about how deep the snow was when we when we drove down to the country roads. And Ig Couture from Elmo talked about how the lake used to freeze over every year, and we used to be able to go ice fishing, and he talks about ice skating too, across across the lake. The differences of my dad, you know, looking at maybe 50 to 75 years and talking to his grandparents, so that's another 50 to 70, so we're talking about like 150 years of knowledge, you know, passed down over over time. The cultural and traditional knowledge that our elders passed down to us is more about living in harmony with the land and having respect for that.

Daniel: I like hearing your stories from getting to talk to elders and tribal members from all over the country. It's really interesting. You must have picked up just so many lessons and ideas and experiences along the way. You know, you're not just having conversations locally, but you're having conversations all over. So I'm curious, yeah to just hear any other stories or lessons that you've come across.

Mike: I did a workshop, so when I work with ITEP, we bring in probably 30 representatives from the tribes in the area, and there was an elder woman at that workshop. I was doing my presentation and she was like, "Mike, you know, I'm tired of having to adapt." And when we talked about trying to help them develop plans and strategies, it's like, "hell, we don't have time to plan. We have we're in reaction mode. Our village is falling into the river." Or the ocean. And, you know, their cemeteries are being eroded away because of climate change and increased erosion. Mm hmm. So, you know, they're all in, like, reaction mode and trying to help them develop some kind of a plan or strategy, you know, how do they deal with that? [synth beat plays to mark a transition]

Daniel: How are you thinking about climate change these days, in terms of like, what kind of an issue is it? Because a lot of people think about it and they think, "oh, that's an environmental issue or that's a wildlife issue." Or sometimes now we're hearing more people talk about it being a health issue and a public health issue. What is it for you, you think? Is it partly a spiritual or economic, or how do you think about climate change?

Mike: I feel like it's all of the above and people are really starting to understand that. The impacts are spiritual, they're social, they're physical, they're mental. All of these things that are happening around us affect our whole our whole being. One of the programs that came about because we were working on climate change was the EAGLES program. But EAGLES is Environmental Advocates for Global and Local Ecological Sustainability. Say that three times. [Daniel laughs] That was a result of my brother Jim and I just having a conversation one evening about getting youth more involved in what we were doing, right? And the whole idea around that was to engage the youth in doing activities within the schools and within the communities to help, you know, help with like recycling, with putting in community gardens.

Daniel: So the EAGLES program is an effort that you and your brother created to engage the youth on the reservation, to work on sustainability, to work on fighting climate change, to try and be better stewards of the earth. So I think you're saying, you know, that for you, one of the biggest climate solutions that's out there is engaging young people.

Mike: As adults, as older people, we have to take responsibility. We can't just leave it all to the younger generations.

Daniel: You know, the past ten, fifteen years, you've been working on climate change constantly, doing all kinds of really innovative and important work. But it's interesting to me that you're saying that you hope your legacy is the EAGLES program and is working with young people. I think that's interesting that that is the key for you.

Mike: On the reservation and across the whole country on reservations, if you do a good thing or a great thing, they name a conference room after you. Or a road or homesite or whatever. It's like you drive down the road and there's, the road is named after somebody. I said, I don't want a conference room or a road or a homesite named after me. I want people to add that to what I want my legacy to be, that my grandkids will remember me and say, this is something my papa started, and this is why we're here. This is why we're doing what we're doing. That's one of the things that for me anyway, I've always thought of it as, or maybe hoped that this would be my legacy. This is what I want to leave on this Earth when I'm gone. And I was thinking about seven generations from now or, you know, 100, 200 years, and my grandkids, my great grandkids will be here and they'll say, "My papa started this." [synth beat plays to mark a transition]

Daniel: I wanted to just ask you about, you did these interviews with elders and you learned a ton of information about the way the climate is changing and how they're seeing it, and the lessons that they've learned.

Mike: It's kind of one of those things like after I did the the Elder interviews, Sadie Saloway from Elmo, I seen her like two weeks later at Walmart. Right. And Sadie seen me in Wal-Mart. And she's come, almost come running over to me. "Mike, Mike, Mike, Mike! I want you to come back and visit me!" Because I went to her house, and "I thought about so many things after you left. I want to you know, I want to share that with you." And and oh, my goodness, a couple of weeks later, she passed away. So, you know, those are the things that [get a bit choked up] just you know, you think about the value and the lesson that we can take from those visits.

Daniel: And then you didn't get a chance to go interview again.

Mike: Right. I didn't get a chance to go back. In all this work, you know, it's like so important, I think, to to get that perspective of the Elders. And there's so much that's like, I seen something that says when you lose an elder, you lose a library of knowledge. And just like with my dad, and I shared with you that my dad was really a support for the work I did. And he had so much knowledge of our culture and our history and Tony Incashola Senior, and all the elders that -- out of the eight I interviewed, Stephen Smallsalmon's the only one left with us today.

Daniel: Wow.

Mike: So, yeah.

Daniel: The two biggest solutions to climate change that I'm hearing from you is like connecting with the youth and also listening to and talking to the Elders as well. Mm hmm.

Mike: Yeah. And doing everything we can. Mm hmm. Being responsible to our Mother Earth and to each other, I think, you know. [guitar and drumbeat begins to play]

Daniel: Well, thanks so much, Mike. This has been great.

Mike: Thank you.

[guitar music continues to play through credits]

Peri: Headwaters is funded by donations to the Glacier National Park Conservancy. As an organization dedicated to supporting the park, the Conservancy funds a lot of sustainability initiatives from solar panels on park buildings to storytelling projects like this one. The Conservancy is doing critical work to prevent the worst impacts of climate change. You can learn more about what they do and about how to get involved at Glacier.org. This show is created by Daniel Lombardi, Michael Faist, Gaby Eseverri, and me, Peri Sasnett. We get critical support from Lacy Kowalski, Melissa Sladek, Kristen Friesen, and so many good people with Glacier's, natural and cultural resource teams. Our music was made by the brilliant Frank Waln, and the show's cover art is by our sweet friend Stella Nall. Check out Frank and Stella's work at the links in the show notes. Besides sharing this episode with a friend who might appreciate it, you can help us out by leaving a rating and review in your podcast app. Thanks for listening.

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