2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 - Leading with Empathy

THE LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP PODCAST

A conversation with 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23, the first active duty military member to be crowned Miss America 2024, about her background, leadership experiences, transition to Harvard Kennedy School, and key lessons on empathetic leadership and following one's passions.

SUMMARY

Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, the first active-duty military member and Miss America 2024, discussed her journey and leadership experiences. She highlighted her foundation for pancreatic cancer research, her academic achievements, and her role as a mentor at the Air Force Academy. Marsh emphasized the importance of empathetic leadership, mental health support, and balancing personal and professional life. She shared her transition from aspiring to be an astronaut to focusing on public policy and her current studies at Harvard Kennedy School. Marsh underscored the significance of passion, support from family and mentors, and the impact of diverse perspectives on leadership.

OUR FAVORITE QUOTES

1. "Don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
2. "Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
3. "I knew that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
4. "Leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life." - Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh
5. "Being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself."

- 2nd Lieutenant Madison Marsh

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CHAPTERS

00:00: Empathetic Leadership: The Foundation of Success 02:43: Journey to the Air Force Academy: A Personal Story 11:33: Overcoming Tragedy: The Power of Support 16:18: Leadership Lessons from the Academy 28:31: Navigating Career Changes: Finding Passion 45:02: Key Takeaways: Empathy and Passion in Leadership

TAKEWAYS

1. Embrace empathetic leadership - Truly understanding and supporting your team members, even when they are struggling, is crucial for effective leadership.
2. Lead by example - As a leader, you should be willing to do anything you ask of your team and not ask them to do something you wouldn't do yourself.
3. Follow your passions - Pursuing work and activities you are truly passionate about will lead to greater fulfillment and impact than forcing yourself into a path for others.
4. Build a strong support network - Relying on partners, mentors, and loved ones can provide the encouragement and guidance needed to overcome challenges.
5. Prioritize self-care - Taking time for your own mental, physical, and emotional well-being is essential to being an effective leader and avoiding burnout.

ABOUT MADISON

Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, crowned Miss America 2024, poses in a Colorado Air National Guard hanger on Buckley Space Force Base on August 7, 2024. Marsh embodies service in and out of uniform, proving that you can achieve your dreams and goals while serving in the United States Air Force. Image Credit: Ms. Miram Thurber, Air Force Recruiting Service Public Affairs

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh, USAFA class of ’23, and Miss America 2024 is the first active-duty member of the military to hold the title. She is also the first such title holder in 50 years for Colorado. She attained her private pilot license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in her physics and astronomy studies, winning a Truman scholarship and is now pursuing her master’s in public policy at Harvard Kennedy School.

CONNECT WITH MADISON

Instagram: @‌missamerica | @‌madiisabellaa

ABOUT LONG BLUE LEADERSHIP

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FULL TRANSCRIPT

OUR SPEAKERS

Guest, 2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 | Host, Lt. Col. (Ret.) Naviere Walkewicz ’99

Naviere Walkewicz 00:22

My guest today is Second Lieutenant Madison Marsh, USAFA Class of 23 and newly crowned Miss America. This is a first for an active-duty member of the military and one for the Colorado history books in that she is the first such title holder in 50 years for the Academy's home state. But there is much, much more to Lieutenant Marsh, including her attaining a private pilot's license at the age of 16. She is a highly accomplished humanitarian, scholar and service member. After the very difficult loss of her mother in 2018 to pancreatic cancer, she established a foundation to raise funds for research and to fight the disease. When she became a cadet, she excelled in physics and astronomy, earning a Truman Scholarship, and is now pursuing her Master's in Public Policy at Harvard Kennedy School. We'll talk with Lieutenant Marsh about her most meaningful and impactful experiences at the Academy in research, athletics, leadership and character development. We'll discuss her speaker role at this year's National Character and Leadership Symposium, and ask how her new role as a national speaker and influencer informs her mission and message. And finally, we'll have the lieutenant share a few takeaways on leadership and character development with you, our listeners. Lieutenant Marsh, welcome to Long Blue Leadership. We're so glad to have you.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23

Thank you so much for having me.
Naviere Walkewicz
Absolutely. And before we dive in, as we normally do, we'd love to know how things have been going since you've been crowned.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 01:51

It has been very, very busy. I've been really lucky that the Air Force decided to keep me on active duty this year, because not only am I getting to serve in a uniform like this, but I'm also getting to serve in that crown and sash. And so, there's so many different experiences that I've gotten to have, whether it's a mixture of days that I'm going and promoting the military, or days that I'm doing a very different type of service. So I never know what I'm gonna’ get every day that I wake up on the job. So it's been pretty cool.

Naviere Walkewicz 02:16

That is awesome. Can you share something that's really stuck out to you as just really memorable?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 02:21

So far, one of my favorite trips that we went on was Normandy for the D-Day anniversary, and I loved it because I had actually gone there last year, right after I commissioned with my fiancé, that was one of the first things we saw as officers. And now getting to go back with a year under my belt with a very different experience, I got to really see that history for like firsthand again. And I just think every time that I look at those headstones, it reminds me of what it means to put on our uniform, what our flag really means to me. And now being able to have that firsthand experience and sharing that with students across the nation, because I want people to understand what it means to serve every day, to hopefully invite people to come and join us and get excited about what service is.

Naviere Walkewicz 03:06

Oh, that's incredible. And, I mean, I think just to reiterate your commitment to service, and then to be able to see how you carry that message through history, I think is really powerful. Oh, that's amazing. I imagine that it's been a whirlwind, and you're looking forward to much more as well. Yes, does it feel like it's flown by?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 03:21

Yes, I feel, I think I have, like, four and a half months left. And I mean, every day I wake up and it's like three weeks later apparently.

Naviere Walkewicz 03:31

Well, I’m sure that to you it feels like it's flying by, but to everyone else it's a moment in time that they can really connect with you. So, your message is so powerful. We're glad that you're representing. Well, we'd love to dive into our podcast so our listeners can get to know you a little bit more and really experience leadership through your journey. So, we like to start by going into childhood. Okay, do you mind sharing a little bit about what you were like as young girl?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 03:55

Oh, let's see. I'd always loved science. Okay, so that was the big thing. I had wanted to be a paleontologist, a volcanologist. I wanted to be a scientist that lived with gorillas and studied them in the forest, which was…

Naviere Walkewicz 04:08

Was that inspired by a movie, or just…

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 04:10

I don't know where that even started from. I think I was like, that sounds cool. My parents were like, What is she talking about then? And then, kind of going more into junior high, I wanted to be a marine biologist, and because I went on submarine biology camp, that was what sparked my interest in space, so that I had a very big shift that brought me to wanting to be an astronaut, which is ultimately why I ended up at the Academy. So, there was all these little things of interest throughout science my whole life that now made me put on the uniform.

Naviere Walkewicz 04:42

So Wow, very long, weird journey to get there. Well, I'm sure it was an adventure for you and your family. Yes, are you an only child? Or do you have siblings?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 04:47

I'm one of five. So, we are a mixed family. I have three older half siblings and older brother Nick, older brother Chris, older sister Sarah. Then there's me and my younger sister, Heidi. So, big family.

Naviere Walkewicz 04:59

Yes, and they’re all adventurous like you?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 05:01

I would say so. I think we're all very different, like my older brothers, they were the huge athletes in our high school. I was not as much of an athlete in high school like I still loved fitness and gym, but I was the band geek. I was the one that was on Quiz Bowl and Science Bowl. My brothers did not. They didn't have the same interest in high school but now they're loving, like, they work in the tech industry. My older sister works in the tech industry. So, I'd say all of my siblings, now that we're in our adulthood, are very focused on, like, all STEM careers. So, it's been cool.

Naviere Walkewicz 05:36

That is amazing. And I love that you mentioned, you know, being a band geek. And I think a lot of people wonder, “Can I, what does that look like down the road?” And just to embrace, I think, our passion? So, what did you play?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 05:46

So, I played clarinet and contrabass clarinet. So that's like the big six foot tall…

Naviere Walkewicz 05:52

Oh my goodness.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 05:52

I was this tiny little kid in the ninth grade. Whenever I got to play contrabass, they have to put you on this really tall chair. And so, there's very hilarious videos of me that my family basically uses this blackmail of me playing that journey. I was so proud of it when I brought it home, my parents were like, oh, it's six feet tall. When I brought it home, they were like, “Why was Madison picked for this? She's gonna’ be playing this in the house all day.” And it's this really deep, extremely loud noise. And they're like, “Okay, we thought we could deal with the clarinet, but this is, this is next level.”

Naviere Walkewicz 06:27

Well, I guess you know the good thing about that, it wasn't a drum set, right?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 06:30

That's true. There's grateful for that. Absolutely.

Naviere Walkewicz 06:34

Wow, so you all got involved in STEM. Do you have military members in your family as well that you knew? That's when you said astronaut and Air Force Academy that helped guide that for you or no?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 06:43

So my grandfather had served, but I had never met him. He passed away, I believe, either whenever I was like a newborn, or maybe a couple years prior, so that, I guess, didn't really influence my decision in the military. The biggest part of it was when I went to space camp in junior high, and I met a bunch of astronauts there. And so, after hearing story after story from them, and getting to go and do really cool experiments, like at space camp, you're building rockets, you're pretending to be an astronaut, like we did a mission to Mars where I got to be a botanist. And so, all of that really influenced my decision on how do I become an astronaut? And so, the story I kept hearing was all of them, for the most part, that I'd met were in the military. They were test pilots, they were fighter pilots. So, I started to figure out, how can I go down that path? Discovered the Air Force Academy and knew that was going to be one of the best places to getting a pilot slot, and even though I am not going down that astronaut path anymore because of those initial dreams and those aspirations that has opened up so many doors now for the rest of my career. So, it's been cool to see how it's evolved over time as I've grown up.

Naviere Walkewicz 07:46

Oh, that's amazing. And I think it's part of what you've learned in your journey is there's a bit of, like, flexibility and kind of, you know, learning along the way. So, it sounds like you did some of that even as a young girl. Okay, so how did you get into the Academy? You applied? Was it just kind of the typical application process? Did you talk to a lot of other cadets? I'm just curious what that looked like for you.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 08:08

I think I don't know if I spoke to a ton of cadets at the beginning. I remember I used to watch on YouTube, like while I was getting ready for bed, I would watch videos of like the jump team, or different anything from the Academy. And I was like, that is where I need to be. And we have a cool thing at our school where they have an entire military day. It's like on a Saturday. So, they bring every branch. They have people that represent active duty, reserve, guard, all of the academies, enlisted officer, anything that you could think of. They have them set up all in our hallway. And I knew at that point that I wanted to go to the Academy. And so, what I did is I basically printed out all of my essays that I knew that people had had to submit in the past for the Academy. I did resumes. I came with my GPA, everything, and I walked right up to my congressman, and I handed it to him, and I said, I went to him, and I said, “I want to go to the Air Force Academy, and I want to be your nominee.” And I'm sure he was like, “Who's this?” So, I was very firm early on, and so we were able to start an incredible relationship with one another. And so, because I did that, I think that was maybe my junior year, early on in my junior year, when it came time my senior year, he fought for me all of the time to get my application in front of people, because I was his principal nominee, and we had a very, very special moment. So, he called me on October 31, and told me that I had gotten early acceptance to the Academy, and so I got to tell my mom, and the next morning, she passed away. So having an experience like that is… that's why the Academy and Congressman Womack are so special to me, because that was my dream for years, and my mom got to know before she passed away. And it's just everything happens at the right timing, and you never know until afterwards. And so now I get to be here. Now I get to wear the uniform, and even though she hasn’t gotten to see it, she got to know about it. And just because of those first instances where I marched up to him and I said, like, “I want to be here.” I got to have experiences like that. And now I get to have wonderful experiences of now serving post Academy life.

Naviere Walkewicz 10:16

I think what you just shared was so powerful in multiple ways. I think the first way is, you know, really being clear and what you wanted to do and to not, you know, take a step back and accept anything, unless you walked right up to him and said, This is what I want to do. You establish yourself, I think, and then to have, I think, that moment where he did fight for you and before your mom passed, having that, I mean, I can't even… Just share thank you for sharing that with me.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 10:45

He is also a huge part of all the scholarships and applications I've ever done. Anytime that I've ever needed someone to write me a recommendation letter. Congressman Womack has been one of the first people to do it. And I remember when I got the Truman Scholarship. I had asked them, like, what do I need to do for the because I was going to go and compete for the Rhodes and Marshall Scholarship the next year. And I was like, what were the strongest parts and what were the weakest parts of my application? And they said one of my strongest parts of my application, literally, was the letter that he wrote. They said that, like, you never get to see what they write, because they have to submit it to a portal. You're not allowed to look. And they were like, what he put in there, put everything like, pushed it far, far past the line. And I'll never know what he said, but I'm extremely grateful for him always believing in me. He actually had a really cool moment after I won Miss America this past year, he went on the floor of Congress and, like, read out all this stuff about what we had done together, being from his home district and growing up there, so it's been really cool to see how our relationship has evolved over time, because he has always supported he's such a big military promoter, and just getting to have that relationship and also use him as a mentor when times were tough at the Academy, being able to call him up and being like, I'm struggling. I know you helped me get in here, but I'm struggling right now. And he was always there to have an open mind to kind of guide me through, to make sure that I made it out at the end of the day.

Naviere Walkewicz 12:12

Wow. I think having those champions in life not only help us get through things, but help shape us that we will be champions for others in the future. Do you see that something that kind of was ingrained in you from that experience?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 12:22

Yes, I think, I mean, we were kind of talking about this earlier, about how I reflect on all of my experiences and look at the fact that I would have accomplished nothing without the people that had helped me, and I now want to be that person, even if it's only a little fraction in someone else's life to help them, because they recognize you don't go anywhere alone, you don't accomplish anything alone. And there have been countless mentors, teachers, family members, loved ones, that had poured into me, and now it's my turn to give that back to them.

Naviere Walkewicz 12:51

Amazing. So, you got into the Academy, it was a beautiful thing for you and your family, and while you were there, that's when you formed the foundation. Is that what I'm understanding from a timing perspective?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 13:03

So, I started the foundation my senior year of high school. So, my mom had passed away, and it was something that my family started literally two weeks afterwards, because watching my mom go through everything, I had recognized that we need to give something positive back to people. And a big part of just pancreatic cancer, is that educational aspect of making sure families around the nation know the signs, the warning, the warning signs, the symptoms. Because that was something that we had no clue with my mom. She was 41 years old when she was diagnosed and passed away. It was a very, very quick turnaround, and so we started it then, then I went off to the Academy. So that's something that I have fun doing on the side and learning a lot of leadership through that as well, because now we've expanded, and I lead about 20 volunteers from across the nation, and it is something that I have not done before, especially like virtually, since we have people all over. So that has been a very big learning lesson this past year, and now I'm getting to use all the cool stuff from the Academy to figure out how to lead people in and out of uniform, because that's something that has been a huge part of my life at the academy, was making sure we serve outside of this, because we have so much time. And I think at the Academy, you often feel like your life only exists inside of the black gates, but there's so much that you can do for people outside of that before you even put on the uniform every day.

Naviere Walkewicz 14:22

I think that's really powerful in sharing that because, you know, I think about your family, and first, I just want to thank you for sharing that difficult time. Because, you know, listeners, we have all different experiences in life, and you know, we all experience, at times, some kind of tragedy. And I think sharing how you found a way you and your family to work through that, and, like you said, kind of provide a perspective for others. You know, maybe if I could just touch on that, and we can, we can move forward while you're at the cadet, when you're a cadet. But can you just touch on, you know, how might you suggest someone find a way to get through some tragedy, maybe through a lens of leadership? Or if they're helping others that are experiencing tragedy.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 15:03

I think there were two really big parts for me. One of them was knowing when to ask for help. That is something that I talk about in academics, and that is something that I also talk about in personal life, because I wouldn't have been able to make it through the Academy had I not received help. So, one of the things that I did whenever I went through basic like I tried to quit on the first day because I was really struggling with obviously, the Academy is difficult and grieving at the same time. So, one of the things that I did to ensure that I would stay was I started seeing a therapist up on the hill. I saw chaplains all the time. I continued that through most of my freshman year, well into covid when I got sent home in 2020 because I knew that there was no way I could be able to lead in the classroom, in uniform, be there for my friends if I couldn't help myself first. So that is the first big step. It is takes a lot of courage and strength to receive help, and I think that is something, a stigma,that we're all having to overcome and change the narrative surrounding the conversation of mental health, you are strong if you get help, and everyone around you is here to help you, and I think as a friend, also being inviting, being conscious of the types of conversations about when other people that you don't know are having to receive help. Because there were definitely times that people had said about me like, “Oh, Madison's just trying to get out of training,” or, you know, you hear things like that. And so I knew that when I became a sophomore, that whoever I was leading, the one freshman that I was going to be in charge of, I could always be a safe space for them and ensuring that anytime, if they needed to go see chaplain, no questions asked, I would be there to walk them to and from the chaplain, whatever anybody needed, because I understand that that sort of help can be life-saving, and we have to be able to invite those sorts of conversations in and allow people to receive the help that they need. And I think that kind of follows throughout the entire culture of your squadron or Air Force wide, and it starts with one person, one leader, being inviting and accepting of those that need help.

Naviere Walkewicz 17:02

That’s so powerful, and I'm so glad that you shared that, because I do think sometimes people might think asking for help is weak, or if I just hide it, then no one knows. But I think you're right. Courage is asking for help and receiving it, and that one person like you said you champion someone else, they will do that. So, you just created this train effect of, you know, support, and I think that's really powerful. So, while you're a cadet, you know, you had amazing experiences, I'm sure. Let's talk about what leadership roles you had as a cadet, aside from being, I think, what do they call them now? So, when you are a three-degree and you have a four-degree, you're called like a coach. Okay, so could you talk about that role a little bit? So that's fairly newer…

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 17:45

Yes, it's pretty interesting. So, you go from being a freshman, which is very much so learning how to follow others, into you are assigned a freshman as soon as you hit your sophomore year. So, you'll have a cadet that has just come out of basic, and they're assigned to you, and that might be, I mean, that's many different things, like you're doing the obvious things like feedback with them, that's required. But it goes beyond that, if you make it so, because everything is a leadership opportunity Academy, if you pour into it so that could be, you know, meetings with them to check up, like, “Hey, how's school going?” Or if they're falling behind in school, like, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you pass your classes,” or, “Let's create a plan to ensure that you are going above and beyond and excelling in these areas.” You have those sorts of conversations with them, and I believe you are their protector against the upperclassmen, because obviously the freshmen, like the upperclassmen, duties are to be hard on them so that they become a better person at the end of their year. But as a sophomore, I had always taken as this is my person to protect and lead, because you're the closest first line supervisor to them. So that's how I took the position of if they needed help, if they had gotten in trouble, having those conversations with them to get them back on track, or maybe they're having some difficulty working with some upperclassmen to try to talk that through with them, to make sure our squadron was still meshing with one another. So that is the intention of the role. And you can go as little as just feedback with them, or you can do a lot. And then you also switch at the second semester, so you'll have a new freshman to lead on the back half of the year. Okay, it depends on the squadrons. Sometimes they strategically place you together, like, let's say a freshman said during basic, “I really struggle with academics,” and they knew that academics was my strong suit. We might get linked together so that they have someone that is guiding them, because they know they're going to struggle with that as soon as the school year starts. So, linking up people's weaknesses to their strengths is a big part of it.

Naviere Walkewicz 19:44

That makes sense. I'm glad you shared that, because I think, you know, not all of us are familiar with that, that kind of program now, and I think the term coach is really appropriate. You know, that actually makes sense, and it helps, actually, I think, inform how you can really, like you said, and embrace that role. And what I think is also a theme with you, Lieutenant Marsh, is, you know, you don't do anything just to do it. And you know you do it because you put your whole self into it. And so, while you're a cadet, maybe talk about what were some of the other things that you experienced from a leadership perspective, from peer leadership, because you know, you had the opportunity to help those you said, as you know, four-degree under you. But what about peers and up? Did you see any leadership you experienced in those realms?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 20:29

Gosh, there are so many leadership stories that I could touch on. I think one that really stands out in my mind was General Clark, who was our superintendent my time at the Academy. And I remember my sophomore year was covid gear, so we had right before recognition, or the night of recognition. My freshman year, we got sent home. I didn't return until the Fall semester. For my sophomore year, that semester was very tough because we were basically locked down. You couldn't leave. You couldn't really go see your family, and that sort of, you know, being contained in those black gates actually, literally, this time was very hard. And I remember there was a time period for at least five weeks when we were kind of stuck in your dorm, and it sucked, to say the least, but the thing that General Clark did was he was not going to ask us to do something as a leader that he was not willing to do himself. So instead of staying home with his family or going out, he came on base almost every night. He was bringing us food from Chick Fil A, Crumbl Cookie, anything that you could think of. He was doing all the cadet things like the, oh my gosh, what's it called when you pour the water?

Naviere Walkewicz 21:38

Oh my gosh, the carrier land, carrier landing, carrier landings, with cadets.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 21:45

That was fantastic. I mean, awesome. And then there was a night, I believe, that he set up a cot in a spare room and stayed over with the cadets. And it's leadership like that that had shown me, don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do. There's going to be times that are extremely tough, and I'm excited to be in an opportunity where I get to lead more people after this year's Miss America, and after I finish up my degree is it situations like that where you can make such an impact and show that as a leader, you are not better than the people that you are leading. You are right there, going with it, alongside them. And General Clark showed that to us from day one, and he is a leader I'm always going to remember and look up to and that was just one of the many stories that he showed that to us.

Naviere Walkewicz 22:25

And it sounds like that, leading by example is something that you also carry with you in your style and how you want to be seen as a leader. Yes, yes. I think that's wonderful. Let's talk a little bit about you know, you said that you've always enjoyed academics and stem so at the Academy, I understand there's an Academic Success Center. Can you talk a little bit about that? Because that's not something I'm as familiar with.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 22:48

So, under the Academic Success Center, there are, I believe, two portions of it. So, there's the Quantitative Reasoning Center and the Public Speaking Lab. And I used those all the time, sometimes daily for all four years at the Academy. So, the Quantitative Reasoning Center, they also have a writing lab underneath that, which I also used. So, they will help you with anything from uh, calc one problems to maybe engineering, or maybe you need help writing an essay, or you're not understanding your English class, or you need to help, like prep for public speaking, whatever it might be. So, I went down there all the time because my biggest thing is asking for help early and often. These are free resources that they provide.

Naviere Walkewicz 23:32

Does every cadet from E.I., from extra instruction? Or is it part of is extra instruction with your… it's kind of the same?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 23:37

Okay, so E.I. is with your instructor. Specifically, this is like a place down underneath the comms tower, where it's an entire wing, where people just sit there all day, and you go online and you make an appointment with them for 30 minutes, and they will be assigned to you to go through your essay with you. Or, “I really cannot get this problem on my assignment. Can you help me with it?” So, if your teacher isn't available, you can go there. It is incredible, because if you are falling behind, there's no reason you can't go to the Academic Success Center, because they have people that stay, I think, until like, eight o'clock at night. And they start, I want to, I mean, I it depends on the people, but I know that some of them started like earlier in the school day, like you could go at noon. So, let's say you have an off period, and you're an IC so you can't go after school. You could go during the day if you have time, or even later that night. So, there's so many opportunities to receive help, and I knew that if I was gonna’ go be a Truman Scholar or try to go to grad school, I needed to go 110% in all of my classes, and I couldn't do by myself. I'm not some genius guru who just understood everything. That was not how I was as a student, I did well because I got help from people that knew a lot more than me, and I tried to learn from them, and especially in English classes and history, writing is not my most favorite thing. Yeah, so I had people that did love writing that helped me, and then I think the public speaking lab is also one that is an underutilized resource for cadets. I hear a lot of people that go and use the QRC, but never the Public Speaking Lab. So I used the PSL for anything from pageant prep, whether they were watching my talent or we were going through 100 different political questions and they were grilling me on them, or I'm preparing for a scholarship interview, and how are they going to grill me on my entire life, or my stances on particular things, or my plans, anything that you could think of. They're there for a speech for your class or a presentation for a class. If you struggle with being in front of an audience, they are there to help you, and it's free. And I can tell you right now, I cannot think of many other colleges that have resources like we do, and I remember my dad telling me as a freshman, when I had told him about the Academic Success Center, he was like, “You better be going there every single day, because I can guarantee your older siblings did not have that type of opportunity,” because we have such a small environment compared to some of these big schools across the US. You get really close with your teachers, and you have the opportunity to get really close to all the people at the Academic Success Center. And that is how you go far at the Academy, and you do well. So every Cadet needs to visit there, at least at one point, because I know everyone is not strong in every area.

Naviere Walkewicz 26:21

Well, guess what I'm going to be telling my sons about, if you haven't, and it's for all classes. All classes, excellent. And I can assure all of our listeners, as you can also hear and see yourself, that the PSL, the public speaking lab, has been phenomenal for you.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 26:37

I love it because I think public speaking is such an important part of being an officer, being able to get up and be in a crowd briefing to very important people, those skills that you learn as a cadet are going to carry with you for the rest of your career. So, start on them early and often, so you're not freaked out the first time you're on active duty and someone very important walks in the room and you're having to talk to them.

Naviere Walkewicz 26:59

Exactly, exactly the low threat.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 27:00

Get over with the low threat stuff. Now, in the safe spaces, we always talk about safe spaces.

Naviere Walkewicz 27:02

I love that. So, let's talk about life after the Academy. Well before we go there, when you were getting your career drops and all of that, what was, what were you hoping for? We shifted from astronauts, so where did, where did you go?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 27:19

So, I actually ended up being awarded pilot as my AFSE. But one of the things that I had kind of recognized my senior year was that I was not passionate about going the astronaut route anymore, which meant I didn't want to go to grad school for physics, and I really wanted to focus more on policy and pancreatic cancer, which is why I ended up at the Harvard Kennedy School. So, I made the decision over this last year to not go to pilot training anymore, because I've recognized this entire job as Miss America, there are so many opportunities and jobs in the Air Force to do your job well. And I knew that I was not 100% passionate about the pilot career path anymore, but I could be 100% passionate about something else in the Air Force, which is going to make me do so much better at that job for the people around me. So, I'm changing my job now, and I'm very excited about it. My fiancé is still going to UPT right now, and I love getting to support him and watching that, and now moving into this new phase of my life where I'm going to get to experience another job in the Air Force.

Naviere Walkewicz 28:19

So, we have listeners that, you know, find themselves in a path, and they feel, “I might, be stuck here.” Now, talk a little bit about making that decision, and how can you encourage others? I think the key word you used is, “I can do more because I'm passionate about something,” but maybe talk our listeners through how you felt this was the right decision, and at that time.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 28:41

I did not come to it overnight, that is for sure. I think it took me probably two and a half years to really, finally be comfortable with it. And I think a thing that I struggled with was fear of people judging me because I was stepping away from this big dream of becoming an astronaut, which I can tell everyone right now, nobody cared whenever I stopped doing that, and that was something I was so fearful of. I thought everyone was going to be like, “Oh, she's not doing this big thing anymore. She's not going to do anything.” And that is not what happened when I started. I remember being in scholarship interviews, and one of the things that I'd received in feedback was it sounds like you're just being robotic, talking about this plan to becoming an astronaut, but when I hear you talk about pancreatic cancer, you light up, and those are the best points in your interview. And so, then that made me think. I was like, “Oh, okay, that's kind of odd that they say that I probably should think about that more,” because I thought I was really passionate about this, and my fiancé had kind of sat me down and was like, “We should, like, discuss this. Like, if you're really having second thoughts about it, because you shouldn't be forcing yourself into a career path to make other people happy.” And I remember my dad had called me after this conversation that kind of started, and he was like, “Listen, just because you told your mom you wanted to go astronaut doesn't mean that you need to do it to, like, fulfill the thing that you told her you were going to do.” He's like, “Your mom and everyone else does not care what career you end up in. All they care about is that you're doing something that makes you happy.” And through the loss of my mom, I had recognized every life is very short. Do not waste it on things you don't care about. Do not waste it on things you're not passionate about, because you're not going to do good at them. Like that's just not that's just not how you work. That's not how I work. I know that if I put 100% into something I'm passionate about, the outcome and the impact that I'm gonna’ have is going to be far greater than forcing myself into this idea of who other people want me to be, and that's why I ultimately made that change. And there were a lot of tears at first. There was a lot of second guessing, and I don't think it was really until this January, after I had started, I started interviewing a lot of people on different career paths, like I had spoken to a lot of pilots and asking them what their life was like. And it wasn't until I had interviewed them and also people that are in this profession that I thought I could be really passionate about. That's what really put it over the edge. And I felt very comfortable then with my decision of I am okay, walking away from this old dream because it's no longer my current one, and that's okay. Everyone grows up, everything changes, and that's life, and accept that. And I think because I went 110% on this astronaut path, it opened up the doors to do anything else afterwards. Just because I went down this path for eight years does not mean that I was stuck in it. Since I had worked so hard, I had opened up every single opportunity, like going to Harvard, that has now changed the trajectory of my career and my life.

Naviere Walkewicz 31:38

So, Lieutenant Marsh, I have to just say, even sitting here in the room, I'm inspired. I know our listeners are feeling this as well. Talk about how going to Harvard, Kennedy School. What is your vision for how this will impact and where it will take your foundation, or what does this look like to you after?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 31:56

I think a really cool thing about the fact that the Academy will send you right to grad school afterwards, is because you have so many opportunities to learn from people that are not military and a very different leadership orientation than we might have ever experienced at USAFA or in just the general Air Force. And that's been really cool. I mean, going to Harvard, we are a very small minority of military members that are there, and I'm getting to meet people from all across the globe. Over 60% of our program are international students, really, which is fascinating. Yeah, I'm getting to learn so much about their countries, their government, which I think is extremely applicable to the way that we work in the Air Force, because we are going to be having to work with a lot of these countries, and now I'm getting a deeper understanding of their perspective, their perspective on leadership, so I think that'll be really cool to see how it's going to impact my Air Force career. But my favorite part of it is the fact that it's allowed me to be really flexible, and what I focus on in public policy, my biggest thing has been pancreatic cancer. So how can I take my experience with the loss of my mom and my understanding of medicine and science now put into policy to ensure patients are receiving the best care so they are not going through what my mom went through? And another cool experience that this reminds me of is how I was talking about astronaut to now pancreatic cancer, because I went down physics instead of having to do a conventional physics project my senior year, because I went so hard in that major I was then able to do an artificial intelligence research on pancreatic cancer, wow, and apply like medical scans X-rays to the way that we detect pancreatic cancer in patients. So, it's little things like that that have opened up doors, and now I've gotten to take that research from the Academy, put that into what I'm studying at Harvard. So just so many different ways that you can apply, reapply and change across your life. So that's I'll be excited to see where I get to use it, I think, way down the road, whether I'm in the Air Force or not being able to serve my community with that degree in the leadership that I'm getting to learn there.

Naviere Walkewicz 34:04

I can't wait to see what you have, I mean, just in the short amount of time, the impact and drive that you have. I mean, it's kind of it blows us away. So, it's really impressive. I wanted to go back to something you mentioned about the different perspectives from the other you know, cultures and countries, especially on leadership. Was there anything particular that you took away or that surprised you, or that kind of resonated with you from some of the people you've met?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 34:29

Gosh, there are just so many times, I think one of the things that I love doing was just, I love picking people's brains. Yes, so we had, like, a house about 30 minutes away from Harvard, and what I would do, or try to do, at least once a month, is we'd have everyone bring their food from their country, and we'd have a huge spread, and everyone would just sit down and talk about their lives. And there was this one girl named Paulina that I was good friends with, and she was from Israel, and so getting to hear her perspective, because they have a very different way of military service, because it is, I think it's required for them after they turn 18. And her perspective on why that is important to their country, and comparing it now to how the US is most like, is volunteer based, and the differences in that. And so, I think that was really cool to hear from her, because it's very different than what we do here. And I mean, there are just so many students. One of them, he was a student that had lived in China almost his whole life. I think he left when he was 14 or 16 for school or work, ended up living in Canada for a long time, and now was back in the US and hearing his entire family's take on covid or military operations or their actual thoughts on America was very different, because it is not what you get to hear every day in mainstream media, because it's someone that actually lived there. So, it was every moment that you get to have there is very fascinating if you're asking the right questions and talking to the right people…

Naviere Walkewicz 35:57

Especially if you're open to listening. I have to ask, what did you bring for your food dish?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 36:01

I made a, what was it, green chili chicken soup.

Naviere Walkewicz 36:08

Of that sounds yummy.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 36:09

Yes. I like a little spicy soup. But it was nice. I was very full that night. I think I have a whole spread of like a table that was 10 feet long, just covered in everyone.

Naviere Walkewicz 36:19

Oh, my goodness. Well, I'm a foodie myself, so I can appreciate that, and I would have probably partaken a little bit of everything too. So, we'd like to know, what do you your time is so busy? What do you do to what I would call like, manage your health, your balance in life? What does that look like for you?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 36:36

I was really terrible at it my freshman year at the Academy, and so I had to learn very fast to make sure I was on the right track. So, freshman year, I was struggling with grief. Obviously, the Academy is very busy, and I gave zero time back to myself ever. It was, I would get up at 6am and I was studying until midnight, and that's what I did every day. I never took Saturdays or Sundays off. I’d just go, go, go. And I think that took a very big toll on my mental health, my social life. And it wasn't until my fiancé Walker was like, “You are going to leave this place and throw up your hat and you're going to have no memories outside of your textbooks.” And I was like, “That is a terrifying thought, because you're totally right. You're 100% right. I have not poured into any of the other outside opportunities.”, and so I started doing very small things, like reading 10 pages of a book every night. That is what I forced myself to start doing sophomore year that slowly grew into, and not a textbook, not a textbook, a fun book that slowly started growing into going to the gym, making sure I have a full Saturday off to be with my friends and family, and so now that I'm having this very busy schedule, I do the same thing. I carry this very large planner around in my bag that goes down to 30 minutes, and I'm planning out every single part of my day. So, if I need to plan when I'm calling my family that goes on there, if I'm planning times to go to the gym that's on there, reading a book, anything that you could think of. That is how I stay replenished mentally. Because I know if I can't be giving that time back to myself, I can't go out and meet people and travel all the time, because everyone has their limits, and I've really had to figure out where mine are over the past couple of years and be very strict with myself to ensure that I don't pass them.

Naviere Walkewicz 38:20

I love that because you can't pour from an empty cup. What's the most recent fun thing you've read?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 38:28

Okay, it's this book called Quitting a Life Strategy, and it is about basically the entire social dynamic on why we look down upon people that quit things, and why that is wrong, and it just meant a lot to me after changing career paths and recognizing that quitting is not a bad word, it's not a negative word. It is a redirection in your life, and it applies to relationships, friendships, jobs, volunteer opportunities, whatever it might be. And it was all of these anecdotes about people that had hated their job and had decided to make a change and are now doing something drastically different and are exponentially more happy, and it just made me feel very certain about the path that I was on, and also more empathetic to people outside of never judging people because they're leaving a certain situation of thinking, the only person that really knows what they're going through is them. And at the end of the day, someone else's life and their decisions don't impact you, so support them. There's no reason to be negative revolving around someone else's life or your own. Just allow people to live life, do their own things. And that is exactly what that book exemplified for me.

Naviere Walkewicz 39:40

I love that. In fact, you make me want to read that.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 39:43

It's great title again, Quitting a Life Strategy.

Naviere Walkewicz 39:46

I love that. Thank you for sharing that. Yeah, so Lieutenant Marsh, one of the things that our listeners love to know, and you obviously have many talents, because you have competed in in them as well for Miss America, but what's something hidden? Or maybe something special about you that you'd be willing to share with some of our listeners?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 40:07

Oh geez. I don't know if I have, like, a hidden talent, per se. Okay, I will, okay, this is funny. Going back to the band thing earlier, okay, every time I'm home on holiday, I break out my clarinet and I try to relearn the music and play, and it really irritates my entire family, because I'm not good anymore. I'm not good anymore at all, and they're all like someone take that away from her right now. And this last time I tried playing flute for a little bit, I did not catch on to it as easily as clarinet, and I was home for Christmas, or maybe it was some other time with my fiancé and me, and he had the flu, and I had the clarinet, we were walking around the house playing it together, and they were like, “We have to deal with two of them now, instead of just one.”

Naviere Walkewicz 40:48

I love so, that's fantastic. Thank you for sharing this. And I think what's so great, some of the things that you've shared throughout this, well, one, they've been golden. I mean, just amazing leadership lessons. But I think one of the things that has been really special is you talk about your fiancé and that support you've had with him. Maybe just share with our listeners the importance of having kind of a partner or a support network. What did that what does that look like for you? You seem like you lean on him. Does he lean on you? Or is it able to be shared?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 41:18

Yes, he is. I mean, I would not be able to do this year's Miss America, or really anything without his support, because if you can imagine, I'm traveling all the time, he's going through UPT and is extremely busy. And it's because of our dedication to each other that we're able to come back at the end of each day, calling each other, making life plans, being honest about how we're feeling. And I think that honesty and the ability to lean on each other makes it so much easier to get through everything. And I remember like I talked about earlier my freshman year, I tried to leave multiple times. I tried to leave on the first day basic, my dad told me, “You can quit, but you can't come home to our house.” So I stayed. I wanted to leave after basic, and I decided to stick it out my freshman year. And it wasn't until that Spring semester freshman year, where I had found people like walker or Dr. Anderson or different professors and mentors that I had had that made me want to stay and like I said earlier, you don't go anywhere alone, or at least, you don't go far by yourself. And so, leaning on people, whether it is your partner or a loved one, that is how you're going to succeed in life, and I've had to learn heavily on how can I be there for these people when I'm at 100% because there are definitely days when I'm at home, maybe I'm not traveling as much for Miss America in the Air Force. And Walker had just the worst, most difficult, long week, like he's having this week, lots of tests, lots of Sims, and I get to be there for him, to support him at the end of it. And it's that give and take and understanding that, above all else, we are number one to each other, and that's something that we talk about it a lot, especially when it comes to career planning. For me, our number one is ensuring that we get to be together. Everything else is secondary, because I know I can't go 100% in my job if I don't have my partner there with me, and he feels the same, and so trying to plan life out in a way that always puts us as the priority no matter what. So, he's been very special. And I think you can also get that outside of a partnership, whether that is someone that is your mentor or a family member or a friend, right?

Naviere Walkewicz 43:20

I think that was a key kind of takeaway that you shared there about first making sure you know what your priorities are, and then staying true to them. So, Lieutenant Marsh, there's two more things we have in this one, and I'll give you a little precursor: I'm going to ask you if there's anything that we didn't talk about there. I didn't ask you that you want to make sure that our listeners have a chance to hear and then the second thing is, we're gonna’ have kind of those, those few key takeaways that you really want them to kind of indulge in from your perspective. So maybe with the first one, is there anything I didn't ask you that you wanted to chat about today?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 43:54

I feel like this is gonna’ go into the leadership piece of it. And I just think it is so important to be an empathetic leader, kind of tying back into the mental health I had heard a story once about someone who had someone underneath them that they were leading, and they kept saying that, “Oh, this person's getting in trouble. They're not showing up to meetings. They just don't care. They are just a bad Airman.” When their supervisor had actually sat down and spoken to them, they had actually admitted that they were struggling a lot with depression and needed help, and it takes one person to sit down and have that very like quick conversation of just asking how people are every day and being genuine about it that could change someone's life, and ensuring that you know there are probably going to be people that you're going to lead, that are going to mess up, but be there for them, lead them, be empathetic and make sure that your people are okay. That is your duty as a leader, and that is something from that story I had learned, and now I have to take through the rest of my career to be cognizant of what my people are going through. Maybe they're struggling something with their family. Maybe they're struggling. With something personally, maybe like me, they need help figuring out their rest of their life and their career, and it's just things like that where you can make such an impact on people if you make the time to have those conversations with them, and that is being an empathetic leader, above all else, can really help your people go far, because if you're not focusing on them, they're not going to feel attached to the work that you all do together. But if you can be unified and stick up for one another, you can do so, so much more.

Naviere Walkewicz 45:29

Oh man, it's always about the people, right? It's always and I think what you said was really key, and that was asking the question, versus either, you know, just kind of going in and directing, but being really open to listen so well. So now, Lieutenant Marsh, because I know everyone is hanging on to hear what you might leave them with, what really is, what guides you in leadership, and what are the few things that you'd like our listeners to kind of take away?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 46:15

I would say, going back to earlier, being an empathetic leader, being a leader who goes by example. So don't ask your people to do something that you are not willing to do yourself. And I think those are the two biggest things that I look for. And I've gained at the Academy and now post Academy life, because I'm always looking for things in leadership that I want to take away and things that I don't. And those are the two biggest things that I want to carry in my little toolbox for the rest of my career. And another important personal piece, whether it applies to your job, personal life, family life, whatever it might be, is always doing something that you love. Your life is too short to live it for someone else or to do things that you are not passionate about. If you are passionate, you're going to go so much further and you're going to be happy. That is the only thing that you can really take away from life, is the happiness that one you provided yourself and you can give to other people, and you can only do that if you're doing work that is worthwhile to you. So keeping that in mind, no matter the strife that you might go through or potential changes that you're going to go through in your career and your life, is holding that near and dear to your heart.

Naviere Walkewicz 47:21

So, this has been an absolute pleasure to just spend this time with you. Lieutenant Marsh, I have to ask, as a graduate and the graduate community, you know, I've enjoyed listening to your story, what can we do to continue to support you?

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23 47:34

I think the biggest thing that all AOG can do and long blue line is really just being there for the cadets, because it is conversations like this, opportunities to talk on a podcast like this that maybe cadets can listen to, or being mentors for them. That's what helps them get through it, and that's how we create great leaders, is by pouring back into our community where we came from. I know we talked about that earlier off camera. That's the biggest thing for me, looking at the people that gave back to me, and now that I'm a grad, just loving to be a part of this, to give back to the people that are now coming up and are going to be following behind us.

Naviere Walkewicz 48:07

Thank you for being such an outstanding I think, leader, influencer, and we can't wait to share in this journey with you.

2nd Lt. Madison Marsh ’23

Thank you.

Naviere Walkewicz

Thanks for your time.

KEYWORDS

People, cadet, Academy, leadership, pancreatic cancer, freshman, Academic Success Center, astronaut, family, sharing, empathy, empathetic, experience, lieutenant, cool, listeners, Marsh, passionate, learn

The Long Blue Line Podcast Network is presented by the U.S. Air Force Academy Association and Foundation