EU249: Psychology of Marketing and Going Viral on TikTok with Ryan McNeill

eCommerce Uncensored - Email Marketing | Facebook Ads | Social Media Marketing

On this episode we have Ryan McNeill, former tv advertiser now marketing professional, who teaches the psychology of influence & persuasion. Ryan has grown his TikTok following to 230,000 followers where he goes over the tricks of marketing and how certain tactics & methods are used to further push people into buying. The guys also share how these tactics are used in sales videos and copywriting.

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This is a direct transcript. Please forgive any grammar or spelling errors.

Jen: You’re listening to eCommerce Uncensored with Kevin Monell and Jason Caruso.

Kevin : Thank you for joining us on another episode of eCommerce Uncensored. My name’s Kevin Monell and I’m here with

Jason: Jason Caruso

Kevin : before we get started. I wanted to remind everybody that we have a phone number for you guys to text us any questions that you may have or anything comments about the podcast. Anything you guys want to text us? That number is 8 4 4 6 4 3 0 7 4 5, text us anything we’d love to hear from you, and we want to do like a whole question and action question and answer a podcast. So we’ll use some of the questions that we get from that. And we’ll use this into some of our.

Jason: Yeah. And if you want to just text us, like my man Al and say how much you love us, you can do that too.

Kevin : Yeah. You’re good friends with Al right at this point.

Jason: Yeah. He messaged me all the time. Yeah. He seems like a nice guy. I feel like sometimes I can’t talk as much as he’d like to, um, just from time constraints, but he’s the nice guy. Yeah.

Kevin : Really nice guy. And subscribe to the podcast. We got a cool interview today. We have a couple more coming up. Make sure you hit that subscribe button. So you don’t miss out. And speaking of interviews today, we’re interviewing Ryan McNeill who is kind of an interesting guy. He, uh, he was in, uh, TV for a while and then, yeah. And then, uh, got into Tiktok and then kind of blew up and went viral and he, he puts out content about persuasive marketing. So it’s, it’s really key to all this marketing. Yeah. So enjoy this interview with Ryan McNeill. Hey Ryan, thank you so much for joining us. How are you today?

Ryan: Hey, I’m doing great. How are you, Kevin? I’m

Kevin : good. So I’ve been through your Tiktok I love like the little snippets. You do little quick tips and I’m interested to hear about some of those things, but why don’t you before we get started on that? Why don’t you tell us a little bit about your, your background and what, what led you to like this Tiktok channel that’s blown up before

Jason: he does that. Okay. Have I got a bone to pick what you Ryan. What’s that you’re telling everybody our, our, our secrets and you’re telling everybody, you know what we’re doing to them as marketers. I got a problem with that.

Kevin : Yeah. Stuff’s marketers don’t want you to know

Ryan: that’s right. Yeah. Um, yeah, we’ll get, we’ll get to that, uh, beef you have with me. Uh, my, my quick background though, is that, um, I’m in my. My professional background is I I’ve worked in advertising. I jumped over and started working in documentary TV on a show called deadliest catch it’s about crab fishermen. Um, and then that led to a lot of other TV shows that I worked on similar to that, uh, eventually made my way around to, to marketing. And, uh, it’s interesting as I kind of look back on this seemingly disjointed, uh, career path, uh, I think the thing that ties it together is just this fascination with, with people and how they tick, uh, what motivates people, what, you know, what, what drives them, uh, which kind of brought about my, uh, the idea for this, this Tiktok account that I have, um, called invisible influence.

Jason: So. You know, what’s interesting is that, you know, everything is becoming is going towards video, right? Like VSLs, everybody’s like wants the VSL and, you know, you said you wanted to talk to us about Tiktok later, but I want to talk to you about video because that is one thing that we just have not found someone that can do good video, like we, and if they do, you know, they’re like working with the Russell Brunson’s of the world, they want a million dollars for a video, or like a funny sales video cost $50,000. And I dunno like that. I want to go there, but, um, I think those two kind of are coming together now, right? Like video is becoming now like the new sales letter. And, uh, what’s interesting is before we got on, we talked about copywriting and you’re big into psychology, like the psychology of why things are happening or why people are buying. And, um, which is pretty interesting because. Most of these copywriting books that I’m reading, they all basically say the same thing. It’s like, you’re not trying to convince people to buy something they don’t want. You’re just trying to be the person that they buy from, you know, they buy the products that they do want. Right. And that was like a brain feck for me. Cause I always felt like persuasion copy was like making people do things they don’t want to do. And then I start reading these books. They’re like, no, no, no, that’s not it you’re just making people want your product. Like right. No, so absolutely. So it’s interesting. You talk a lot about this kind of stuff on your, your channel. And that’s basically what the point was is that you, you talk about how people are using different triggers, emotional triggers, how they’re doing these kinds of things

Ryan: to make you buy their stuff. Yeah. That’s kind of the pitch of the whole channel is that a as a advertiser marketer background, I’m showing consumers basically here are the secrets that marketers are using to kind of use your own psychology against you. Um, so like you said, these are not new ideas. I think like, you know, we’ve been reading the same stuff in a bunch of these marketing psychology books for a long time, but it, it is crazy how few people really understand. What’s going on, you know, pulling back the curtain as to why they feel motivated. It’s funny too. Cause as a, as a person aware of these tricks, they still work on me too. I don’t know if it’s the same for you guys, but like I find myself falling for some of them seem marketing tricks that I’m calling out on my tick-tock channel because, because

Jason: they’re not really tricks. Like if, if, if I want to buy a boat, right. And you’re just telling me what this boat is going to do for me. And you’re just wetting my whistle, so to speak, you’re not really tricking me into doing anything. Now you are tricking me. Maybe not tricking me, but you are using tactics to get me to do things like I will, I will submit that, but you’re not really forcing me to do something that I don’t want to do already.

Ryan: That’s fair. I think it kind of comes down to that, that conversation of the difference between persuasion and manipulation. That really what we’re doing is more of persuasion as marketers then manipulation. I’m sure there are some of those people out there who are still trying to work the manipulation levers, but I do think it’s less effective. Uh, but yeah, just being a strong persuader is really, I think what we’re trying to do at the end of the day as marketers,

Kevin : right? It’s crazy. Once you, once you start learning it and you get into this world, and even as you, the videos I watched on your tick doc, you start noticing them everywhere. Every single thing you see from going into a store, going into a restaurant, watching TV, the ads that come across on YouTube, all those things that happens everywhere. And like Jason said is like, it’s all the same. It’s like you just see it in different places in different ways.

Jason: Yeah. It’s a true. Right. Like from where you are today to where you’re going to be after you buy whatever it is you’re buying. So when you walk into a store and you see this gorgeous mannequin all set up, like she’s like looking, you know, dressed to the nines, you put yourself in that mannequins place. Like, oh shit. I would look really good in that too. So to me, like, I don’t feel like that’s forcing anybody to do. I, I do think that that’s subconsciously doing shit, but.

Ryan: Oh, absolutely. Yeah, no, I, I agree. It’s, uh, it’s not really forcing people to do anything against their will. Um, but it, it is crazy. Like you said, you see these things all the time. It’s kind of like, you know, as one who worked in, in the kind of Hollywood system, you start to understand that every movie is, is the same formula, just repeated over and over again. It just, when you start to like peel back that curtain and see like how not unique, everything is that everything is just formulaic. Uh, it’s just a matter of, of learning those, those formulas and triggers that, that work.

Jason: Yeah. And that’s like a dollar Don Donald Miller thing, right. He actually kind of decoded Hollywood. He basically said, look. I don’t care what movie you’re watching there is like this good guy or reluctant hero. And then there’s like this bad force and he’s like, it’s, it’s just how our brains work. We’re just into this like good and evil, like fight.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. Now it is funny that, that, uh, I, I’m not to the point that I’m just like a total cynic when it comes to movies and stuff, but you know what, when you, it does take a little bit of the joy out of, out of the movie going experience when you know, like, okay, this thing is probably about to happen, uh, in any kind of like Hollywood blockbuster movie, that the formula is somewhat predictable as Donald Miller calls out. Uh, and I really do enjoy the way that he relates some of those, uh, storytelling, uh, techniques over to marketing. I think he’s, he’s done a really interesting job with what, what he’s, he’s selling there with the StoryBrand.

Jason: Yeah, I mean, No. Go ahead. Yeah, no, I was going to just say, um, and he says like, and he’s right. He’s like the movies that don’t do as well, usually don’t do a good job of this, this, this force interaction, like this good versus evil. He’s like, have you ever noticed like a movie that you just can’t get into? It’s usually that they’re just not telling the story with enough, like bad forces coming into, you know, so it’s interesting.

Ryan: So Jason, could I, can I dive into one thing that you said that you were having so much trouble with with video? Um, I’m curious. The type of video you’re trying to do, because I think there is something interesting today and it kind of relates back to the tick tock thing, but this, this whole idea of, uh, how platforms like Tiktok have kind of democratized video in a way this, this user generated content look. Um, I think there’s something really interesting with that, that I don’t know what, what types of video that you’re after. But I do think that there’s a, that’s kind of part of the magic of Tiktok for me is that it can look like shit. And there’s something that feels very real and authentic about that. Um, so yeah, I’d be curious to hear what, what type of video you’re, you’re trying to, uh, to make that is seemingly so impossible to find.

Jason: I don’t want to say that it’s impossible, but like understand it, like, okay. What you’re doing on Tiktok, first of all, how many followers followers you have on their likes?

Ryan: Um, I think my follower count is somewhere that 230, 8,000 range. Yeah.

Jason: So I, I think that, like, there is a segment of people that like that, that real part of it. Right. And you can get to know someone that way really well, but when you’re trying to create like a, like a video sales letter on a landing page, like, like, I mean, some of these, like, you know, these Harman broad brother videos and like these, uh, you know, we had a Joseph what’s the last name Kevin

Kevin : Wilkinson.

Jason: Will, will Wilkenson in from funny sales videos and they clearly understand. How to create a video that either goes viral or that sells. Right. And that’s the one I’m talking about, like that VSL um, you know, like I we’re, we’re starting this new golf brand, like the golf, this golf product. Cause I’m like a former PGA professional, um, teaching professional. And uh, like I want to use that as like my passion and like, I don’t feel like I got, when I go outside and shoot like a VSL from like, just like, you know, a selfie, like it’s not going to have the same impact kind of create this longer form. So that’s kinda what I mean. And the editing, like knowing what to pop up at what time, when do you use B roll? When not to use B roll, that kind of stuff. To me, it’s just like, oh shit, this is

Kevin : like too much. I think it just feels, it feels like a huge investment in time and in money. When you think about a video sales letter like that, and then our mind is like, you don’t even know if it’s going to do it. Really. So it’s a bruise to make, to do this whole production and spend a bunch of money and a bunch of time to put it together. And then it just like falls flat. It’s kind of like a barrier, I think, for a lot of people.

Ryan: Yeah. Some of those guys that you mentioned are kind of wizards with, with knowing, uh, knowing how to do this stuff. It’s funny because when I was working in LA and pursuing, directing the number of. People the clients would come to us and everyone just wanted something viral. That was just kind of like the understood thing. Like if you’re gonna spend the money, you obviously want it to reach as many people as possible. Uh, so yeah, figuring out those exact things that make something viral, it is like a special sort of, uh, magic. The people who’ve been able to been able to replicate that over and over again. Uh, yeah, that is a gift. Um, I think there are definitely certain things, especially like, you know, relating back to Tiktok. There are certainly little triggers that I know work as, as hooks for, uh, for those types of short form videos. But yeah, that, that video sales letter style video, that, that is an art unto its own. Yeah.

Jason: And we’ll, we’ll get into exactly what you’re doing specifically. But I always like, so I ever since I’ve gotten to the copywriting world world and understanding like this good versus evil, and it’s like, you know, I do pay attention to like how that all plays out in movies now, just because I want to learn, you know, but I think what’s what, what fascinates me the most is when you watch a movie, the way that it’s filmed makes you feel like. It’s linear, but when you watch it, there are so many different angles of cameras that you don’t even realize are happening. So like I was watching a movie yesterday called nobody, which is like a, uh, equalizer slash John whip type movie and almost identical. And just like how they set the camera up, like low with like an object, maybe like a table in between the person. And then the face that they’re showing. It’s like, you don’t think about that while you’re watching it, but when you’re trying to notice that shit, it’s so interesting that like, How they’ve made you feel a certain way when you’re watching it, right. Just by the camera angle. Like, like I said, like before I started thinking about this, you almost just think of it as like, this it’s like linear. It’s just like one picture the whole time, but it’s not, it’s like literally cutting every two

Ryan: seconds. Yeah. I mean, I think the really gifted, uh, Hollywood directors, I think Spielberg is one of those masters of this. Just kind of like knowing exactly what visual clue to sort of present on screen to, to kind of pull the story along. Uh, and you know, some people don’t have that gift and it, uh, it makes for a really kind of broken or, or more confusing story. But those people who can reveal the right visual at the right time, that sort of tells you what’s about to happen, but it doesn’t really mean too much. Yeah. It’s, it’s a real art. Yeah.

Jason: Yeah. It really is. And it’s, it’s um, that part of it, you know, it’s funny. I heard something the other day and I’m, I’m. In this copywriting world, all of a sudden, like recently, it’s not really my thing. I was mainly like Facebook ads, email marketing, you know, that kind of stuff. But this fascinates me like being able to persuade people with words. Like, that’s just so crazy to me, but I heard someone say, um, you know, everybody, like this is the guy speaking. He said, everybody thinks that you should work on your weaknesses. He said, but really you should just be doing your strengths and let someone else do the things that you’re weakened. So don’t, don’t try to learn them, just be just to try to save money or that kind of thing, because it’s like, It’s just wasting time on something that someone else who really knows what they’re doing could be doing, and you could be doing something that you’re really good at. It’s just interesting, you know, it’s like, so it’s like, I’m like, should I be really working on copywriting right now?

Ryan: Yeah, that’s funny. I just read an article about how, uh, you know, you derive a lot more happiness. If you outsource those parts of your life that you just find to be extremely tedious to. So it’s a, I don’t know if it’s a new year’s resolution for me to, you know, hire out more, uh, lawn care and house cleaning, but that’s what kind of jumped to mind. Maybe I could be a happier individual if I, if I outsource more of these things that aren’t necessarily the best use of my time. Well, there’s an

Jason: opportunity cost and Russell Russell Brunson talks about all the time. He’s like, yeah, I can go outside and cut my grass. He’s like, but it was, it cost me a hundred dollars. Like I could be making a thousand dollars. Like even if I have the time to do it, I don’t want to do it because I can, there’s an opportunity cost

Ryan: to that. So yeah, totally, really interesting. So.

Jason: Not for the bullshit. Why don’t we talk about what exactly triggered you to do this? Why did you do this and what exactly are you doing? I know we spoke about it a little bit, but

Kevin : yeah. I mean, when you talk about your background, you don’t, uh, you don’t appear to me to be a Tiktok influencer. So how did you know what led you to this and how did you end up with 230,000 Tiktok followers?

Ryan: I mean, honestly, this was kind of a product of the pandemic because, uh, I started this channel. I think it’s been. A little less than a year. I think February of last year is when, uh, I don’t know when this will air, but it’s, it was about a year ago that I kicked this thing off. Um, I had been a consumer of, Tiktok just kind of casually. I don’t know if obviously one of you guys must use it too to see my account, but for those who haven’t used, it, it’s a pretty addictive little app. Um, you know, I think in the early days it was mostly just kind of dancing and lip-syncing teenagers. So I think there was a real reluctance for, uh, older folks with, you know, anything serious to say, uh, to, to get on there. Um, but you know, what had happened was it was like I said, the middle of the pandemic, um, I was feeling pretty, uh, cooped up and also just creatively, a little stifled, um, and. You know what happened was I was also reading this book, uh, called share your work by Austin Kleon. I don’t know if you guys know this book. It’s a great little coffee table book, um, by a graphic designer who a super easy read, but the kind of premise behind this book is that, um, if you just kind of share what you’re doing, uh, your process on things on the internet. Magical things could happen. You never know. I mean, do it not just for what could happen or, you know, extrinsically, but, uh, it’s just a good practice to always be kind of putting yourself out there, uh, making yourself a little more vulnerable. And so for me, you know, as a video guy, I’ve always turned the camera around on other people. I’ve never been like the star of the show. That was never really my interest, but having read this book, I was like, You know, I am relatively new to this marketing, uh, industry. Um, although I’ve had a long interest in this kind of, uh, marketing psychology stuff. I mean, that goes back to, I think in high school, reading this book, uh, called coercion by Douglas Rushkoff, uh, you know, and so I’ve always been fascinated by that stuff. So I was like, you know, what, as I kind of learn new tricks about this, this kind of marketing psychology stuff, I’m almost going to use Tiktok as a way of like bookmarking ideas that I don’t want to forget, you know? So, uh, and, and that kind of continues to this day. It’s almost like this is my way of, if I hear like a really fascinating idea on a podcast, uh, if I come across something on a blog, um, you know, this is a way for me to kind of. Put it out there as a tool for me to remember, I find it interesting and apparently some other people find it interesting as well. Um, and so that’s kind of the Genesis, uh, of, of this tick tock thing, I think.

Jason: Yeah. So I was in, um, Ray Edwards I just did a five day challenge with Ray for, um, you know, the, uh, how to write, copy that sells. And he was talking and he said something pretty interesting about Tiktok that I didn’t think about, but he said, you know, the one thing about Tiktok and why I think it’s the biggest meaning him, why? I think this is the biggest opportunity is unlike Facebook, unlike Instagram, unlike Twitter, Tiktok to shows videos. Okay. That people like and share. So like, it doesn’t matter how many people are following you. It doesn’t, none of that matters. Like your videos can go viral. If you have one person following you, if other people are liking it, which is, which is interesting. Cause you know, it’s not really like that on Facebook. It’s not like that on Twitter. It’s not like that on face on, um, on Instagram. Right? Like you really need followers, people to see your shit, you know? So that was like, that was like a really interesting thing for him to

Ryan: say. So yeah. I mean, they really stumbled on something, uh, clever with that tick-tock algorithm that, that made it, you know, it, it sort of democratize the whole content creation idea because you know, someone’s pointed out that like people who are trying to grow on Instagram, it just, I think it’s plateaued. I mean, I don’t often find myself following new people. Uh, on Instagram, maybe more because they’ve kind of changed their algorithm to kind of give a, present more people in front of you, uh, who you’re not following, but, uh, yeah, that’s, it totally worked for me. I mean, I went from, uh, just, uh, having no followers to, I mean, literally in a week, I think I is when I had one massive video that got me like 150,000 followers. So it was just like a crazy moment that felt like my phone wasn’t gonna blow up.

Kevin : What was that

Ryan: video about? Yeah. Um, that video, which, uh, I do kind of, it’s basically a background video about, um, who I am, what this channel is about, uh, and kind of a call to action to follow me. Uh, if, if you’re interested in learning this stuff, I actually, I was really fascinated by. I probably put more thought into kind of like the psychological triggers of Tiktok video. I put more thought into that video than probably any other that I’ve done, uh, in terms of making sure it had a really enticing hook at the beginning, um, you know, quick cuts seem to work pretty well for me. Uh, there were just a number of things I did in that video that I thought I had like a pretty strong hunch that it would do something. I kind of told my wife, like, Hey, you know, I’m going to watch this video pretty closely. I had no clue that it would do what it did. Um, I think it’s got over a million views now, but it, uh, uh, if, if anyone goes to my channel, I have it pinned at the top. It’s it’s called my, my biggest professional regrets,

Jason: I think it’s so I just wanna say two things. So number one, um, That one of the things that’s probably help is that you’re doing something different. You know, people don’t like marketers, people look at us like, salesmen’s like, you’re kind of like going against that fray, so to speak. And I think people kind of latch onto that, which is cool. But I’m going back to what you said about, you’re just, you wanted to kind of like document what you were doing, so to speak and like have a place, you know, Gary Vaynerchuk talks a lot about that and I’m not like a big Gary V. Guy, you know, he’s a little bit too. Like for me personally, I mean, not a bad guy. Can you can Navi clearly, you know, he just, just a little bit too, like huffy puffy, kinda like for me, you know, like he knows everything, he knows the future and all this other shit, like anyway, but you see, you could tell he’s a good guy. Um, but he says like, don’t create, he says document because like, if you create, it’s very hard to. Stay with it, like to continue just creating shit. He goes, it takes a lot of time to think about it takes a lot of time. He’s like, but if you’re just documenting what you’re doing anyway, he said, it’s just much easier because now you’re just doing what you’re doing anyway. And you’re not really trying to create something. You’re just saying like, Hey, look, this is what I’m doing. Um, so I think like that’s a really interesting concept, right? Don’t create like, don’t like document.

Ryan: You know what I mean? Yeah. That’s interesting. Yeah. Easier for him when he has like a whole film crew following him around every day. But I will, I will say that when you start getting into switching into kind of content creator mindset versus just consumer of content, it really is, uh, such a different perspective on, on my day, at least. I mean, now my brain is constantly going to like, oh, I can, that’s a, that’s a piece of content. Like, you know, whereas before I was never like seeking out these opportunities, now that I have been kind of creating content, uh, you know, I see, I see opportunities of things to share all the time that I was just kind of blind to before. Um, kind of my, my matrix moment, I guess, of a content creator matrix. Okay. It’s always

Kevin : been really difficult for us. We always said that we all wait. We always say these things on podcast and we have all this content like, and we hadn’t marketing agent. We have marketing agency. If we just like looked at the things that we were doing every day and just like documented everything we did, there’s so much content. And I think people don’t recognize that it’s just really hard. We have a really hard time, like, okay, stop when we’re doing let’s record my screen and what I’m doing and try to walk people through this little tutorial. Um, did you have a hard time with that when you first started or was this kind of nature second

Ryan: nature to you? I mean, I think what, what has been a hindrance to me is that with a video background, I still struggle with the, just I’m going to shoot this crudely on my iPhone kind of thing. Like I sort of want everything to look a little too beautiful, which kind of probably is not the best for me on Tiktok, because sometimes when things look too nice, um, you know, kind of our bullshit alarms go off that this reads like an ad. But, um, now I, you know, I don’t know. I just, I found a way to kind of work it into my, my day to day. I, I think one of the biggest things for me now is, uh, I have just a note taking app. I use one called Trello. I don’t know if you guys know this app, but I just keep a, a super long list of ideas that I want to get to. At some point it’s, it’s absurdly long at this point. So I definitely have more ideas than I have time to create, but I don’t want to lose that idea if it hits me. I just want to document it really quickly on my phone.

Kevin : Yeah, let’s go into some of your content too. Like an actually, because our audience is our business owners, e-commerce store owners, marketers. Um, what are some of their persuasive techniques that you focus on on, on some of your videos?

Ryan: Uh, you know, I think basically what I’m doing is I’m just rehashing, uh, this book by Robert Cialdini over and over again on my, my channel. Uh, I don’t know if you guys know this book, uh, called, uh, uh, persuasion by, uh, uh, Robert Cialdini’s how you say his name? Um, I read that book, uh, I’m sorry. Persuasion was the other one, uh, influence. He would also want to call priests Pre-Suasion was Robert Cialdini, but influence is the one that really was like the big, first one that was kind of a light bulb moment for me. And he’s, uh, a college professor, former college professor, um, who really kind of did a deep dive into, uh, the, just the field of, of what influences people, what persuades people to take action. Uh, and so he kind of has broken it down. He actually just re-released this book, it’s, it’s a, it’s an old book, but, um, uh, he kind of gets into a number of the different triggers that, uh, that people use. Yeah, I read it. I read it.

Jason: I don’t know. It’s hard to see, but I read it and I’m oh, shit. And moved, but, uh, I couldn’t, you know, I had a hard time listening to it. It was just like, oh, I couldn’t get through the listening of the freaking reader. I don’t know. I didn’t finish

Ryan: it. Um, yeah. I mean maybe, uh, maybe give it a chance with the, yeah. The, the audio book. I don’t know. Maybe, maybe you did, but his, I was just pulling them out for, to remember, but his, his original ones he talked about were six triggers, uh, being reciprocity. Um, commitment. Once we commit to something, we stick to it, authority how we will listen to authority, figures, social proof. I’m sure you guys are very familiar with that. Use that. Well, a scarcity, when we think that something is scarce, uh, how, how we desire it more. And then, uh, and then just how liking, uh, you know, causes us to, uh, when we like someone we want to, uh, to do business with them or work with them. So, you know, again, these aren’t necessarily groundbreaking ideas. I think some of them feel almost like common sense, but it is interesting how he’s kind of worked, uh, in the, uh, academia, just kind of studying how effective these things really are. He just had an, a new and two and the updated version. I’m blanking on what it was, but yeah, it is interesting how these triggers get used over and over in a lot of the marketing efforts. And like you said, yeah, it is, my channel is much more of like a consumer beware angle. It’s although I think I have a mix of, I certainly have a lot of marketers and small business owners kind of reaching out to me to thinking like, even though I’m telling people, Hey, look out, these things are being used on you. I think there’s a lot of interest too. And like, well, how, if these are so effective, maybe there’s a way I can use these myself for my own marketing

Jason: So what’s interesting to me, is that not interesting, but people don’t realize this is that, you know, um, you read the book. So in your mind, right. Everybody read the book and the truth is, is like, you can literally, you can literally create a business out of what you’re doing. Just grab a book that you’ve read and teach the value in the book in your way. And now chances are people are going to want to hear about it because they haven’t read the book and most people are lazy. They’re probably not going to read the book so you can basically do what you’re doing and say, look, I read these 10 books. I’m going to give you the cliff note version of it. And you, you know, if you do it in your own voice, you may not have to say that. But, um, because these are not like all these are not people don’t own these concepts. They’re just basically telling you, like, you’re bringing them to light, so to speak. Uh, but yeah, I mean, you can create an entire business just on teaching. Shit from somebody else’s book.

Ryan: Yeah, it’s funny. I can’t remember if we had pushed her cord yet, but we were kind of talking about how a lot of these copywriting books are just kind of the same information, just retold in a new and a new way. It’s kind of like what you’re saying. It’s almost like you can take some of these, these universal concepts and you just put a new wrapper around it and put your own unique spin on it. And there you go. You got your own business, right? So, uh, or in my case, take talk channel. So

Jason: are you monetizing.

Ryan: That’s the tricky thing with, uh, with Tiktok. I have not yet, uh, crack that nut. Um, I will say first off for anyone who’s interested in, in content creation, thinking they’re going to get rich off of tick talk. Um, I’m here to burst your bubble right now, uh, that, whereas I think one can, can do quite well with a follower account on YouTube. Uh, tick-tock pays, uh, the pay is pretty meager, so don’t get into Tech-Talk for, for what that creator fund might have to offer because, um, I mean, you sure it might, uh, I think in total, this last month, uh, even with multiple videos, you know, getting 10, 20,000, I think made like two bucks this last month. It’s it’s crazy. How little tick tock. But, uh, there is still a great opportunity for pushing people off platform. Um, you know, there have been brand, uh, opportunities that have come up to do kind of sponsored posts stuff. Uh, so that’s, that’s always fun and interesting. It’s also kind of an interesting conflict of interest when you’re telling consumers, Hey, look out for marketing bullshit. And then all of a sudden I’m like, how do you, how do you organically then weave in, uh, some marketing bullshit into your, uh, your, your feeds? I don’t, I don’t want to, uh, for me the, the payday that would come with that hasn’t been worth, uh, risking, you know, the potential, uh, you know, feedback from my audience feeling like I somehow betrayed my, uh, their trust.

Jason: Well, I like the podcast, right? So this podcast, um, we don’t really get rich on the sponsors that. And, uh, but Kevin and I have made a lot of money with what the businesses that we have outside of the podcast. So, um, we have this business with a wildlife photographer. It’s a, it’s a seven figure business. And we met him through the podcast, our biggest client, um, who they pay us a lot of money every month. They came to the podcast. So. We don’t really make our money from this podcast, but we make our money from this podcast.

Ryan: Sure. Yeah, absolutely. You know what I mean? Absolutely. No, that’s great. Yeah. I mean, I do think that there, there is opportunity there. Um, you know, I sometimes, uh, kick myself that I waited until I had kids to really like, you know, dive into being a content creator. There’s a million things I want to do now. Uh, you know, I, I think like we talked about there there’s potential for a course here for, you know, either marketers or small business owners who want to use some of these, these tactics. Um, and I’m actually, I’m kind of in the. Sort of customer research phase a little bit to, to better understand what needs are out there. Um, if anyone goes to my, uh, account, um, it’s a, again, it’s, it’s invisible underscore influence just to make it a little, a little more confusing. But in, in my, uh, in my, uh, bio, I I’ve, I’ve kind of created a link where I’m, I want to kind of do these one-on-ones with people, um, both to kind of understand what, what questions people have about marketing, um, to better, you know, better create content for my channel, but also to see, you know, is there potential for a course out there or, or something else to be done with this. So I’m trying to better understand kind of what roadblocks people are facing. Yeah,

Kevin : it’s tough. I mean, you’re obviously building a targeted audience here, but like when it, especially when it happens so fast, it’s hard to really understand who those people are, especially on these social media channels. You’re like, who the hell is liking this? Who’s who’s sharing it. You know, same with our podcast. Like we get a good amount of downloads every month, but we really don’t know who they are on the other side. So you got to try to like, just gather, I think you’re doing a good thing by having a form or that they can fill out and ask questions and stuff like that. That’s a good way to kind of see who your followers.

Ryan: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, because again, just relying on the, the demographics tick-tock gives you. I can know, you know, I skew 52% male and that they’re mostly from the United States, but they’re very surface level demographics. So yeah. I, I would love to know who my audience is, to be honest. So it’s, it’s cool when I get contacted by people like you guys, like, okay. I’m glad to hear that I’m reaching other marketers because that is an audience I would like to be reaching. Yeah. I mean,

Jason: you can, you know, I, even though you’re kind of going against sorta like the fray sorta speak, I think you can, you can twist it a little bit and say, look guys, like, I’m not making this shit up. Like this is, these are facts. So I’m just telling you what the facts are. I’m not necessarily, you know, so like, like, look, I know how to use these facts to sell your products. I’m just making you aware of them. But basically all you’re doing is creating, you know, you’re creating trust with people you’re and, and. So it happened for you pretty quickly, but I think what’s going to happen is the longer you do it, the more people will see your face and sort of like, we get a lot of people that are like, look, I’ve been listening for two years or three years, and I just reached out and I’m like, what the fuck took you so long? And right. And they’re like, well, I just didn’t have the need two years ago. Right. So like, there’s a lot of like things like timing. I we’ve talked about this on our podcast a lot. Like timing is the number one factor. I don’t care how good your sales letter is. I don’t care how good your, your video is. I don’t care how good any of that shit is. If someone doesn’t need what you’re selling, it’s not going to work. Right. So everything is timing. So just staying in front of people, just, you know, one of our biggest clients, she was listening to us for what kind of like a year, or maybe like something like that before she reached out to us, she reached out to us. We’ve been working with her for three years now. Right? You know that repetition, that consistency. I see guys all the time coming up on my IgE. I have no idea who these guys are. I never watched their videos. I never read about them, but you know what? I see them almost every day. And you almost just start trusting them, even if you don’t listen to anything.

Ryan: Yeah, it’s funny that you say that I, I was watching some of your old content and, um, you recently had on, uh, this Ezra, uh, guy. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I’ve seen, uh, Facebook ads, uh, from, from this guy. And it’s funny. It just, that my, um, I’m pretty sure he he’s running Facebook ads, right. This guy. Oh yeah. Uh, it’s funny that just my having seen him previously and then I saw him again, like there, and I didn’t immediately clue into where I’d seen him, but there was instant authority built up in my head like, oh, this guy knows what he’s talking about because you know, I would know he would not be recognizable face to me if I didn’t, you know, trust, you know, w w what he was saying or something.

Jason: Sorry, I’m gonna cut you off, but Ryan, but think about what you’ve just said, like, that is a fact, right? Like, I don’t care if you decode it and tell me that I’m using that against. You can’t change the

Ryan: fact that that works.

Jason: Absolutely. You know what I mean? So to me, you’re pointing out things to people that are just facts. I mean, you can, you can say like, this is how they’re persuading you, but they can’t do anything about it. Like you’re telling people how this is working and it happened, it worked on you

Kevin : go do the things I’m telling you to do it.

Ryan: Right. Exactly. Uh, no, it, it, it is so fascinating to me. And like I said, I, I fall for these things all the time. Some, some people just use them more delicately than others. Uh, you know, the ones who are really good at it, you don’t feel like you’re being, uh, Manipulated or persuaded. It’s the really good ones are the ones who are very sly about it. Um, because I certainly see, uh, you know, not to, um, not to, uh, ruffle any click funnel feathers, but there are certain ClickFunnel type websites that I see that feel so heavy handed in. What’s going on that again? Maybe that’s just me that I have like more of like, uh, some more red flags go up about yeah. But, but some of that, some of the tactics used on, on some of these websites just feel, um, a little over the top to me. So it, you know, I seem to respond to the ones who use it a little more on the sly, but

Jason: wait, you got to see, this is something that I don’t remember which book it’s in. Okay. But this is actually an important part of copywriting that, that is. I forgot who it was. It might even be been Alex, Alex, or mosey in here, somebody, they said like, the idea is not to attract people that aren’t like you it’s to attract people who are like you. So those people who are being the way that they’re being, they’re attracting those people, you’re saying. Uh, high pressure kind of guy. So you’re just not attracted to it, but it doesn’t mean that there isn’t a segment of people

Ryan: that are that’s fair. Yeah, absolutely. So it’s really interesting. Yeah, no, that, that is, that is interesting. Um, you’re

Jason: trying to attract people like you. That are not like you, because they’re never going to buy from you, people that are like you, that see themselves in you that talk like you, that act like you that’s who you’re trying to. Kevin and I have, we both started a business. We would attract two different people. Right. Kevin’s very laid back. There’s not much that kind of bothers heartbeats once a month. And I’m like, I’m like, Right. Like I’m, uh, I’m, I’m

Kevin : a salesy guy over the top bullshitter, that kind of guy. Right. And

Jason: you, you know, you, can you ask you a question, you get back to me four weeks later, you know, like, you know, oh, you pushed me.

Ryan: I’m coming. Yeah. I think I would respond better to Kevin’s marketing just based on, based on that. Absolutely.

Jason: And that’s not wrong. There’s no, nothing wrong with that. Right. Like I want to attract people who, who think like me who act like me, I’m not the only one in the world that acts like this who’s abrasive and brash. I mean, there are tons of people like that. That’s what I’m going to attract. When I create a business, Kevin’s going to attract more laid back people like you, or maybe people that don’t talk as much like him, whatever. But the point is, is you’re not, I’m not trying to attract you. Right. Like you are not my guy. Yeah. Right, right.

Kevin : But Kevin is, I think people get caught up in thinking that, uh, they need to reach everyone instead of just finding exactly who they need to speak to. And then they end up speaking to no one.

Ryan: Oh a hundred percent. Yeah. I actually, I just made a video about that. I think that’s so true. And two, I feel like that’s one of those bedrock foundational ideas of marketing. It’s just, I, I am not my consumer. Jason, you said, I, I may want to try people like, like, uh, me, but, um, you know, in a lot of the work I do, it’s just kind of, it’s such a false idea to think like, okay, because I would do this thing, everyone else to do that thing. It’s, it’s kind of what you said. It’s just, yeah.

Jason: To know, but it’s you as a person, it’s not what you do. Like doesn’t mean you guys are gonna have the same, uh, the same tactics or this, but you’re going to be attracted to people, people that are like, you are going to be attracted to you. People that are like, Kevin are going to be attracted to Kevin, right? Like, dude, there’s a whole segment of marketers that don’t want to sound like a used car salesman. Like I may sound when I sell

Ryan: right.

Jason: There are millions of used car salesman that make.

Ryan: That’s true too. Yeah. Yeah. Um, no, it’s, it’s a great point. Um, it’s, it’s really like one of these, it’s one of these reasons I love talking in these one-on-one sessions that I’ve been doing through my Tiktok is one. I just, I enjoy interviewing people. It’s kind of what my background is with the TV stuff was, was interviewing people and hearing them tell their story in their own words. But by getting people just keying into even some of the phrases that people use and, and, uh, and all that, I just, I find that, that, again, it kind of ties back to this fascination with consumer psychology, I guess, but I just love hearing how people talk about, um, you know, their own purchasing decisions, uh, the emotions behind them, uh, that stuff is just endlessly fascinating to me. And I think so helpful in determining what type of product is really going to work with.

Jason: Yeah. They buy with emotion and they justify

Ryan: it with logic. That’s right. That’s right. To

Jason: me is like just a crazy thing to think about. Like, I buy something on emotion. It’s so true. Like I want something like emotionally, but then like I got to go through like, okay, if I spend this and I don’t spend that and I spend it like, like, let me

Ryan: give you an example.

Jason: I just bought golf clubs. Okay. They were $1,200 clubs. I did. They were supposed to be here yesterday and they weren’t in, so I’m frigging annoyed then I hope they come today. Fricking FedEx just says delayed. Um, but I, so I bought, got calls. They were $1,200, $1,200. If I pay for it right now would not change my life. Right. However, I still buy like that. Right. So I’m like, okay. $1,200. But if I sell my old driver, I’ll get 300 for that on eBay. If I sell, sell another hundred, if I sell another, my three-word, I can get another a hundred dollars. Okay. So now my $1,200 golf clubs, they just went down to 600. Now I got my old golf clubs and maybe I can get 300 on eBay. Oh shit. I only pay $300 for these brand new clubs, but that’s what you do. Right? Like I want the clubs and then I want to logically, you know, reinforce my purchase. Yeah. Right.

Ryan: Kind of

Kevin : like what I did. It’s really interesting listening to your logic. When you go to buy these big parts, I love it. And you’re like, well, in the end they only spent a hundred bucks. Cause I sold all this stuff anyway. But once upon a time you bought that thing originally. So it’s still money out of your bucket. Yeah.

Ryan: But it’s funny. What was the original trigger that said, I need $1,200 golf clubs like these, what was it? So I

Jason: am a golf fanatic, right. It almost be like me saying to you, why do you need a cannon

Ryan: mark five. Okay. You’d be like a known in your, in the golfing world. Like this is the one that half

Jason: my clothes are from 2004. So I’m a, I’m a pretty good golfer and changing golf clubs is like impossible for somebody who is used to the feel and the weight and the swing weight and all this other stuff. So like I bought three sets of golf clubs before this one and I’ve returned them all because I’m like, they just don’t feel right. I’m hitting the ball. They don’t just, they’re just not getting the feedback

Ryan: that I want. Right. So

Jason: it’s very difficult for me to change my clothes, but I am going to be 45 years old next month. And I’m just losing the speed I once had. Right? Like I’m just not swinging it as hard. The clubs that I have were just a little bit heavy, so, and $1,200 for golf clubs is actually cheap. They really go up to like 2000. For 2,500, but the ones I got,

Ryan: it sounds like you’re justifying with logic again. You’re justifying, uh, this. Yeah, no, actually a great deal.

Jason: I just bought my house and everything in this frigging house has been for my wife.

Ryan: So that’s the one thing. Exactly. I like it. So you will need

Jason: that, but that’s the, it’s so true. Okay. Like, shit, I’m, I’m, I’m getting my, uh, I’m slowing down my swing, you know, I need to now playing with all these guys in South Carolina, they’re all beaten me. I’m usually the best golfer that I can’t beat these guys. So it’s driving me crazy. So anyway, that’s exactly how it worked. I emotionally wanted these gloves cause it’s going to make me play better golf as at least I think it will. Yeah. And then I got to

Ryan: like justify it logically. Okay. Uh, you know, there’s, uh, I throw in a handful of, uh, kind of sports psychology things on my channel too. And one of those was, uh, uh, a study. Um, Nike, or at least they use Nike as an example, uh, of, of people who believed that sports equipment was going to make them better. It actually had this kind of placebo effect, uh, and people actually did perform better just because they were using Nike products. Um, so yeah, you could take the same two products, tell one group, Hey, this is a Nike thing. It does this, this, this, and this. And then the other group, not knowing all this like, backstory about how awesome it’s supposed to be, that that group has been told how amazing they’re going to perform with, with the product outperforms. Well, here’s a perfect

Jason: example in your world. Yeah. A guy with a Canon mark five. And if he knows what he’s doing can probably do just as good of a job as a Nikon D three. Sure. Right. Or no, D a D what is it? D five anyway, a cheaper Nikon camera, right? Like a really good videographer. He can just, he knows it’s the glass. Right. He knows that I can throw, you know, some nice glass on the mark five and I could throw some nice glass on the Nikon D whatever, the cheaper DS. Right. There’s some good ones, but like the cheaper one, right. They know that it’s going to kind of look the same. Right. Like, it’s kind of like that, like golf, equipment’s kind of like the same thing as like, I kinda, I’m a good golfer. I kinda could pick anything up and be good, but I want to like optimize

Ryan: and that’s where the clubs come in. So I love it. Yeah.

Kevin : Cool. Yeah. It’s all good. Um, I got one

Jason: question. I got one question. I know I keep talking, but this one, this, I was like, this is Kevin. I know this was like a heavy me conversation here as it’s mainly because like this, this copywriting world is like what I’ve been studying. So I got fascinated. Usually I let Kevin talk a little bit more, but anyway, Brian, um, we’ve been. You know, what’s interesting about your story. And I think it’s like, it’s like the story with a lot of people, when you go into something trying to be famous or trying to get viral or whatever, it often doesn’t happen. But like, I get the sense from you. If I said to you like, Hey, how do we replicate this? You’d be like, yeah. Uh, get a viral video and hopefully get 150,000 people to like you. Um, but what are like some tips would you say for people on Tiktok because you got momentum and I think that’s what it comes down to is like finding a way to get momentum. And then, so what are like some tips you would say for me, let’s say, I want to get on Tiktok and I want to do something. Like, what would you say? Like, I know for me, like I get caught up in the equipment, like everything has to be perfect. So what would you say.

Ryan: Um, yeah, first I would encourage people to, to even attempt it because, uh, for all the things you said before, about how much easier it is to find an audience on this platform versus the other ones. It’s so true. Um, you know, this kind of goes to this concept of, of just, uh, I, there’s a video from IRA glass who, uh, of this American, this American life, he talks about this idea that whenever you get into anything new, any kind of creative venture, you’re gonna suck at it in the beginning. And, you know, even though I have a background in video, I look back at the very first videos I shot. I’m like, ah, man, I cringe at how I sounded, how stiff I looked. Um, and so it is interesting that it’s going to take time to get there. So you have to kind of get over that hump of, of your initial insecurities about, uh, about putting yourself out there. Um, And then to, you know, again, this is kind of more on the sort of human psychology. A lot of the roadblocks that I hear people encounter when they’re not posting content is just this, this, uh, this idea of there’s a concept called the spotlight effect that everyone’s like judging you, that everyone’s kind of looking at your, you know, poor equipment or, you know, your, whatever it is and judging you silently for it. And, and really the secret is that everyone feels insecure and feels like everyone’s judging them. So really no one is judging you as harshly as you imagine they are. So if you’re past that, I would say with, with tick-tock, I would ignore the advice of people who, and there’s a lot of them on Tiktok who say like, you need to be posting two or three times a day. Sure. I mean, there’s something to like throwing a lot of shit out there and like law of averages, you know, you’re going to have a better chance of something hitting, but I’ve kind of gone with this like quality over quantity, a thing myself that I’m not going to just like throw a garbage video out there. I feel like that is just going to burn my audience. If they see too much garbage content for me over and over again, then they’re going to lose interest. I would make sure to get the comments, uh, or it happens on feet all the time that I will see it happened this morning. That I’ll say that someone just engaged with my content for like 45 minutes straight liking video. After video, I would much rather have like a lot of really quality videos then, you know, throwing three videos out there and just hoping that something hits, uh, But yeah, I would say like, just get over that, uh, that thing that says I need better equipment that is especially true on Tiktok, where, uh, most of the content out there is, is shots kind of crudely. Um, and, and honestly, like I’ve kinda mentioned, like, I think in a way I might have too nice of equipment at times. I think that it can be a turnoff to like overdo your production on a platform like Tiktok, where people expect things to be shot on iPhone. So, I mean, beyond just getting yourself a nice mic, which you clearly already have, uh, I think you you’re golden. You just need to come up with, with some ideas of things to share.

Jason: We need to do what your channel man, as, as you’re talking, as I’m thinking this through, right. Like you need to, and I’m just, this is just my, my opinion.

Ryan: Right? You got, you should

Jason: talk about. A concept like you have concepts and get your videos. Right? Right. And then you should talk about how to poke those in video, because you can do that. You know how to do that. And then you can send people to your website or a link or something. And let me that I would buy it. If you were like, look, this emotion is being triggered or this, the marketers are using this to trigger your emotion. If you’d like to know how to do that, click this link. And I have this PDF, get people on your email list and boom, you’re on your way. Um, I mean, to me, you know, w what we’ve always heard and we’ve, we’ve realized is like, with stuff like, with being a creator, it takes time to find your voice, right? Like it takes time to figure out really how you’re going to deliver your message, the most optimal. Right. And you’re going through that now. I mean, you’re still new at this, right. So you’re still trying to figure out like what’s working and what’s not working. And what, to me, like, I think video is such what is like the opposite, but the same as like taboo, it’s like such a, like a concept that people just can’t wrap their heads around. Right. And I think that like, guys like me as marketers, like, I would love to know like how Hollywood takes this concept and like sucks you in. And I can show you how to do that here. Just click this layout, dude. I’d be on that list

Ryan: instantly. Give me ideas here, man. I love it. Um,

Jason: one last idea. Sorry. Did you have something? Say no, go for it. Okay. One last idea is, um, what was that guy’s name? Social triggers. Do you have your watch? Leave her the blog? Um,

Ryan: sounds vaguely familiar, uh, social Derek house. Okay

Jason: of got out of the blogging space, but he used to talk about this concept. He’s like, look like at first people don’t care about the production. They want the shit, they want what you’re teaching. Right. They he’s like, he’s like, I had this, like I shot this video and like a whiteboard in my office and I made millions of dollars. And then like, I hired this crew and we did it again. I couldn’t, nobody would buy it. He’s like, so I went right back to the old shit. Right. Like when it’s people just want the stuff, they don’t want it to be too elaborate. And like, it’s taking you too long to get to the, to the concept. They just want to know how to do the thing. Right. Right. And that’s, I think what you’re saying is like, get over that, like everything has to be perfect and they just want the.

Ryan: Right. Totally. Tomographer it’s a, yeah. It’s almost that the idea of like, getting like a minimal viable product out there. Just, just get something out there and see what works. I think that, yeah, that’s another great thing with, with Tiktok is the opportunity to just throw a lot of different types of concepts out and see what, what, uh, resonates with your audience and just kind of lean into that.

Kevin :So start doing it. I mean, so many times, so many times, like I’ll, I’ll sit here and I’ll, I’ll think that I have a good idea and I’ll start doing it. And three hours later, I don’t have anything because I just keep recording it, redoing it over and

Jason: over again. And this is a funny thing. I started like a blog like 15 years ago and it’s like, um, it’s such a crazy concept to think about it. It’s so true. It’s like when you just start a blog or anything now, and now it’s all, it’s all a social, but when you start these things, you think that everybody. Going to see your stuff and nobody does, and you really care about it. And then when you get big, you don’t care about it anymore. And everybody is seen, everybody is seeing your stuff, right? So like in the beginning, nobody sees your shit and you put so much time into it. And then later when you have millions of followers, like you don’t put as much time into it and everybody does see it. It’s just a crazy

Ryan: concept to think about.

Kevin : So anyway, all right. You guys got to go check out Ryan’s tick-tock at invisible underscore influence, a lot of cool, little quick, little snippets and tips and tactics. Really cool. Really interesting things to think about. I got really into it. So go check it out, follow him. Do what you gotta do. Thank you so much for joining us, Ryan. Absolutely stay in touch and yeah, that was a cool interview. Good guy. Uh, look forward to keeping in touch with him. He’s got some good strategy. Really

Jason: really nice guy. Um, I definitely feel like I was talking a lot in this one because I’m so interested in this.

Kevin : You can tell your passion behind this persuasive marketing and the copywriting.

Jason: So mind blowing to me how you can write words on a page that persuade people to buy your product. It’s just to me, I can’t, I can’t figure out something other than golf that is more, uh, to me is like, just

Kevin : crazy to think of. Yeah. The tricks are so interesting too. And within the physical, psychological tricks, like even with the videos, like just how they’re shot, like I think we talked about it, how they’re shot and the angles, how they changed. I think keep your attention a certain way. How you hook them in like it’s so key. So yeah, really cool stuff. Anyway. Um, again, our text phone number, text us at [phone], text us. Your questions, comments about the podcast, whatever, subscribe to the podcast. Join our Facebook group. ecommerceuncesnsored.com/facebook. Do all those things. Anyway, as always, you can check us out at e-commerce uncensored.com and we’ll talk to you guys real soon

Jason: later.

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