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Вміст надано Ed Heil. Весь вміст подкастів, включаючи епізоди, графіку та описи подкастів, завантажується та надається безпосередньо компанією Ed Heil або його партнером по платформі подкастів. Якщо ви вважаєте, що хтось використовує ваш захищений авторським правом твір без вашого дозволу, ви можете виконати процедуру, описану тут https://uk.player.fm/legal.
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Crushing Club Marketing

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Вміст надано Ed Heil. Весь вміст подкастів, включаючи епізоди, графіку та описи подкастів, завантажується та надається безпосередньо компанією Ed Heil або його партнером по платформі подкастів. Якщо ви вважаєте, що хтось використовує ваш захищений авторським правом твір без вашого дозволу, ви можете виконати процедуру, описану тут https://uk.player.fm/legal.
Crushing Club Marketing is a podcast for progressive private club leaders ready to increase their revenue and create long term change for their club. We discuss topics pertaining to leadership, digital marketing strategies and long term planning to create sustained club growth.
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53 епізодів

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Crushing Club Marketing

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Manage series 2256426
Вміст надано Ed Heil. Весь вміст подкастів, включаючи епізоди, графіку та описи подкастів, завантажується та надається безпосередньо компанією Ed Heil або його партнером по платформі подкастів. Якщо ви вважаєте, що хтось використовує ваш захищений авторським правом твір без вашого дозволу, ви можете виконати процедуру, описану тут https://uk.player.fm/legal.
Crushing Club Marketing is a podcast for progressive private club leaders ready to increase their revenue and create long term change for their club. We discuss topics pertaining to leadership, digital marketing strategies and long term planning to create sustained club growth.
  continue reading

53 епізодів

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In this conversation, Ed Heil and Steve Mulholland discuss the intricacies of video production, emphasizing the importance of storytelling and understanding the audience's needs. They explore how to capture the essence of a club through various filming techniques, including documentary styles and the use of drones. The discussion also covers the significance of finding the right voices for interviews and mastering the art of conducting them effectively. In this conversation, Ed Heil and Steve Mulholland delve into the intricacies of video production, focusing on the art of cinematography, the emotional impact of storytelling in sports, the crucial role of music, and the importance of editing. They share insights on how to effectively capture compelling visuals, the significance of sound in enhancing viewer experience, and the challenges of editing to create a cohesive narrative. The discussion also touches on practical advice for aspiring producers, emphasizing the need for collaboration and clarity in messaging. 00:00: The Importance of Story in Video Production 05:52: Capturing the Essence of Your Club 12:05: Finding the Right Voices for Your Message 18:02: The Role of B-Roll and Aerial Shots 24:23: The Art of Cinematography 30:30: The Role of Music in Video Production 37:17: Editing: The Heart of Storytelling…
 
Private clubs often pride themselves on tradition—but without strong governance, even the most respected institutions can find themselves unprepared for what’s ahead. In this data-driven conversation, Ed Heil talks with Joseph Abely, Executive Consultant at Club Benchmarking and lead author of the Club Benchmarking 2025 Governance Report. Rather than offering surface-level advice, Joe draws on insights from over 400 clubs to reveal what actually moves the needle: board education, succession planning, and long-term strategic thinking. The findings are clear—clubs that prioritize these elements don’t just function more smoothly; they outperform their peers financially and operationally. If your board meetings are focused on operational fixes instead of future vision, this episode is your wake-up call.…
 
What defines value in today’s private club? It’s not the square footage of your dining room or how fast your greens roll—it’s how your members feel when they engage with your club. In this episode, Ed Heil is joined by Dr. Bonnie Knutson, professor at Michigan State University’s School of Hospitality Business and longtime private club member. Together, they explore why exclusivity isn’t the draw it once was, how member experience now drives perceived value, and what progressive clubs are doing to evolve with generational expectations. From redefining reputation to creating "Instagrammable" moments, Bonnie shares research-backed insights and memorable metaphors that will challenge how you think about membership, communication, and strategic planning. Whether you’re managing daily operations or setting long-term vision, this episode offers a roadmap for making your club not just relevant—but irresistible.…
 
No club is immune to crisis, but most are unprepared when it strikes. In this episode, Ed Heil is joined by Andy Skoogman, a seasoned crisis communications expert with a background in law enforcement, media, and private clubs. Together, they discuss the common misconceptions club leaders have about crisis situations, what effective planning actually looks like, and why managing internal communication is just as important as handling the public response. Whether it’s a media incident, a member conflict, or something more serious, this conversation sheds light on what clubs can do today to be better prepared tomorrow Key Moments: Andy’s Background in Crisis Communication [00:00:00] – From journalism to military media training to law enforcement, Andy shares how his career shaped his crisis communication expertise. A Lifelong Connection to Private Clubs [00:04:00] – Andy reflects on growing up golfing with his father and why he chose to raise his own kids in a private club environment. Common Misconceptions About Crisis Planning [00:07:30] – Andy outlines the three biggest myths leaders believe about crises: it won’t happen, others will handle it, and you can’t plan for it. Real-World Examples of Club Crises [00:11:00] – From tragic accidents to internal disputes, Andy explains how crises at clubs take many forms—most without media coverage. Risk Management Through a Communications Lens [00:14:00] – Why crisis planning can’t be left to legal teams alone, and how to look at risk from a PR standpoint. The Speed of Crisis in the Digital Age [00:16:30] – How social media has changed the game, and why clubs need to respond faster than ever before. Choosing the Right Spokesperson [00:20:00] – Why credibility, clarity, and media training matter more than titles when selecting someone to represent the club. Balancing Transparency and Legal Advice [00:24:00] – Why withholding information often backfires—and the case for addressing bad news head-on. Internal Communication Builds Credibility [00:28:00] – Andy shares how consistent member communication builds trust long before a crisis occurs. Club Governance Challenges [00:32:00] – Volunteer boards, dues increases, and why the club communication structure can break down under pressure. Taking Action: Where Club Leaders Should Start [00:36:00] – Practical next steps: scenario planning, identifying spokespeople, and media training for key staff. Final Thoughts on Reputation and Readiness [00:40:00] – Why club reputation is more vulnerable than ever—and why preparation makes all the difference.…
 
In this episode of Crushing Club Marketing, Ed Heil sits down with Jodie Cunningham, owner of Optimus Talent Partners and a certified Predictive Index partner, to explore how behavioral assessments can revolutionize hiring in the private club industry. Drawing on her years of experience, Jodie shares practical insights on building stronger teams, aligning talent with culture, and avoiding costly hiring mistakes. From understanding your club’s identity to using data to navigate generational differences, this conversation is packed with strategic takeaways for club leaders who want to elevate their recruitment approach and enhance the member experience. Key Moments: Meet Jodie Cunningham (00:00:00): Ed Heil introduces Jodie Cunningham, owner of Optimus Talent Partners and certified Predictive Index partner, with a background in HR at the Four Seasons and St. Louis Rams, highlighting her expertise in behavioral science and talent strategy. Culture Drives Member Experience (00:04:03): Jodie emphasizes that culture is shaped by the people you hire, making talent selection critical; the Four Seasons’ process, where every candidate met the GM, shows how seriously they took cultural fit (00:05:06). What Clubs Often Miss in Team Building (00:06:12): Many clubs lack a strategic HR lead and jump into hiring without first defining their needs, leading to reactive, short-term decisions (00:07:13). Proactive Recruiting Strategies (00:07:13): Jodie encourages clubs to go beyond job postings by branding themselves as employers of choice and building pipelines through schools and networks; recruiting should be a shared responsibility, not just HR’s job (00:08:06, 00:08:58). Knowing Your Club’s Identity (00:09:52): Clubs must understand their environment—formal or informal—so they can hire people who thrive in that setting, especially if they’re going through change (00:10:55). Common Hiring Pitfalls (00:12:50): Reactive hiring, relying on resumes instead of fit, and unconscious bias are all common issues; resumes show where someone has worked, not how well they’ll perform (00:14:37). Why Use Assessments (00:15:37): Assessments give insight into how candidates will collaborate, lead, and fit into your team, revealing traits that interviews often miss (00:16:38, 00:17:22). Don’t Over-Rely on Assessments (00:18:15): Assessments are helpful tools, but people can flex in roles temporarily; Jodie warns against using them as excuses for underperformance (00:19:17, 00:20:55). Use Assessments Beyond Hiring (00:21:40): Jodie recommends using assessments for onboarding, feedback, conflict resolution, and succession planning to strengthen team communication and performance. When to Use Assessments (00:23:18): Ideally, assessments are used during the application stage, but timing depends on cost and length; even refusal to take one can offer insight (00:24:20, 00:25:07, 00:27:00). Fair, Valid, and Legal (00:27:45): Use scientifically validated assessments and create objective job targets to ensure fairness, reduce bias, and stay compliant. Picking the Right Tool (00:29:32): Clubs should identify their goals, weigh the cost of a bad hire, and evaluate tools based on pricing model, ease of use, length, and available support (00:31:21, 00:32:18, 00:33:08). The Predictive Index (PI) (00:47:48): PI helps clubs align hiring, onboarding, and performance with a common language; it’s quick to complete and offers individualized behavioral profiles (00:48:37, 00:49:41). Getting Started with Assessments (00:50:40): Jodie suggests piloting assessments on 3–5 candidates for a key role to test how it fits into your process before a full rollout. The High Cost of a Bad Hire (00:52:14): Poor hires cost more than money—they impact morale and culture; understanding your team and embracing change are key to long-term success (00:53:22). Generational Insight Through Data (00:54:09): Assessments help leaders adapt their style to different generations and better understand their own strengths and gaps (00:55:56). Sharing Assessment Results (00:43:36): While candidate data isn’t typically shared, employees can request access; cognitive data should remain confidential, but internal transparency supports stronger teams (00:45:13, 00:46:04).…
 
Episode Description In this episode, Ed sits down with Bret, an expert in change management and communication, to discuss why successful club transformations depend not just on strategy but on how change is communicated. They explore the unique challenges of implementing change in private clubs, the importance of transparency, and how leaders can effectively manage member expectations. From capital improvements to governance restructuring, Bret shares insights on how clubs can proactively shape the narrative, overcome resistance, and drive meaningful progress. Key Moments: The Heart of Change Management [00:00:37] – Bret explains why communication—not technology or funding—is the key factor in whether change initiatives succeed or fail. Why Private Clubs Face Unique Challenges [00:08:46] – Unlike corporations, clubs are often governed by boards and have emotionally invested members, making consensus-driven decision-making essential. Transparency and the Rumor Mill [00:14:06] – The importance of addressing potential changes early and openly to avoid misinformation and resistance. The Role of Vision in Driving Change [00:19:27] – How club leaders can frame their messaging around a long-term vision that aligns with the club’s mission and values. Multi-Channel Communication Strategies [00:23:13] – The necessity of using multiple platforms—email, in-person meetings, social media, and club signage—to reinforce key messages. Managing Resistance: What’s in It for Me? [00:33:15] – How clubs can effectively communicate the direct benefits of changes to both long-time and newer members. Setting Realistic Expectations and Timelines [00:36:07] – Why major club transformations often require a two-to-three-year horizon, and how leaders can manage expectations while maintaining momentum. Lessons from the Chicago Board of Trade [00:38:53] – Bret shares a case study on how clear, honest communication helped execute a large-scale transformation successfully. Final Thoughts on Change Leadership [00:44:06] – Why inspiring members and staff to embrace change is just as important as the change itself.…
 
Episode Description In this episode, we chat with Jackie Singleton and Kristen LaCount from The Country Club about their approach to club communications. From the evolution of their communications department to managing capital project messaging, they share practical insights on building member trust through transparent, consistent communication across multiple channels. Learn how they've developed a culture where communication is prioritized at every level and how they effectively manage messaging for major club initiatives. Key Moments: Setting the Stage [00:00:25]: Ed introduces Jackie and Kristen, discussing how The Country Club stands out with a dedicated communications team. Communications Evolution [00:01:17]: Jackie explains how club communications has grown from a unique position to an industry-standard role with its own CMAA summit. Early Communications Efforts [00:05:06]: Discussion of how the communications role originated around 2006-2007, initially to handle website needs and online reservations for curling events. Communications Channels [00:08:58]: Jackie outlines their primary communication methods including website, email, push notifications, and strategic use of printed materials. Member Segmentation [00:10:23]: Insights into their email segmentation strategy implemented in 2013-2014, allowing members to opt in/out of various interest-based communications. Capital Project Communication [00:12:31]: Kristen describes their approach to major project communications, emphasizing committee representation and strategic messaging. Campus Conversations [00:16:41]: Jackie shares how they created a dedicated website section for capital planning information to combat rumors and provide easy access to facts. Video Production Approach [00:37:39]: Discussion of their video strategy focusing on authenticity over polish, producing 200-250 videos annually using simple equipment. Squirrel Squad [00:34:34]: How they use different social media approaches for members versus employees, including their famous "Squirrel Squad" initiative for staff recruitment and culture building. Tactical Advice [00:55:09]: Jackie provides practical starting points for clubs looking to enhance communications, including coordinating departmental emails and establishing a consistent club voice. Philosophical Approach [00:52:01]: Kristen offers strategic guidance on building support for communications initiatives by benchmarking against other successful clubs and finding internal champions. Budget Reality [00:49:38]: Jackie notes that their communications budget is approximately 2% of overall club spending, primarily on labor rather than technology or external services.…
 
In this episode, Ed talks with Jason Becker, CEO and founder of Golf Life Navigators, about emerging trends in private club membership and why clubs should prepare for higher-than-normal attrition rates. Jason shares insights from his company's extensive data collection and explains why the real estate market is a crucial indicator for private club membership trends. Key Moments: Setting the Stage [00:00:00]: Ed introduces the current state of private clubs, noting that over half still maintain waitlists with an average of 70 people. Golf Life Navigators Overview [00:03:26]: Jason explains how his platform matches prospective members with clubs using a dating app-like algorithm to reduce attrition rates. Waitlist Dynamics [00:05:27]: Discussion of consumer attitudes toward waitlists, revealing that 70% of prospects don't want to wait more than six months for membership. Real Estate Connection [00:08:15]: Jason explains why the increasing inventory of golf community homes signals coming changes in club membership. Attrition Predictions [00:09:23]: Analysis of why attrition rates might exceed pre-pandemic levels, particularly due to delayed resignations from older members. Member Services Evolution [00:15:13]: Exploration of how clubs need to align service levels with increased initiation fees and focus on time-saving amenities. Demographic Shifts [00:16:52]: Discussion of how clubs must cater to multiple generations while building for the future. Real Estate Strategy [00:21:11]: Jason shares insights on community "capture rates" and how clubs can better control their real estate destiny. Sales Process Evolution [00:25:35]: Examination of why modern membership directors need proper CRM systems and marketing automation. Final Insights [00:29:21]: Jason emphasizes the importance of transparency in club planning and investment strategies.…
 
In this episode, we chat with Dave Porter, CEO and GM of Greystone Golf and Country Club, about how he transformed his club's governance from a traditional committee-based structure to a CEO-led model. Dave shares his journey of building trust, empowering staff, and creating a more efficient decision-making process that's helping the club thrive. Key Moments: Setting the Stage [00:00:00]: Ed introduces the challenges of traditional club governance and why change is needed in today's competitive landscape. The Early Days at Greystone [00:05:01]: Dave discusses his initial requests when hired, including changing how committees report and operate within the club structure. Building Trust [00:11:05]: Insights into how Dave gradually built trust with members and staff through focus groups, operational changes, and transparent communication. Pandemic Innovations [00:03:48]: Discussion of creative member engagement initiatives during COVID, including the still-popular sunset cart cruises. Committee Evolution [00:15:15]: Dave explains how he streamlined committees from 12 to a more focused structure, making them advisory to management rather than the board. Culture Creation [00:40:23]: Exploration of how the new structure enables better staff culture, using the example of "Wimbledon on the Green" event to show improved interdepartmental cooperation. Leadership Qualities [00:43:54]: Discussion of what GMs should consider before pursuing a CEO model, including risk tolerance and leadership style. Member Communication [00:17:16]: Dave shares his approach to keeping members engaged through informal channels like "Happy Hour with Dave" instead of formal committees. Board Meeting Changes [00:32:40]: How board meetings evolved to become more strategic and focused on big-picture items rather than operational details. Final Thoughts [00:50:34]: Dave emphasizes the importance of staff retention and positive culture in creating sustainable club operations.…
 
In this episode, we talk with Russell Bennett, a professional drone photographer specializing in golf course imagery, about the technical and artistic aspects of capturing courses from above. From licensing requirements to creative techniques, Russ shares insights on how clubs can best utilize drone photography to showcase their facilities. Key Moments: Discussing Drone Sightings [00:03:00]: Before diving in, Russ discusses his perspective of seeing drones in the recent news. Getting Started in Drone Photography [00:03:45]: Russ discusses his transition from marketing to drone photography during COVID, starting with golf courses due to his passion for the game. Course Representation [05:30:00]: Conversation about the importance of quality drone footage in representing a club professionally versus settling for basic aerial shots. Licensing and Regulations [06:30:42]: Overview of FAA Part 107 licensing requirements for commercial drone pilots and important airspace restrictions near airports. Shooting Heights and Techniques [15:08:00]: Insights into flying heights and creative techniques for capturing engaging course footage, including low-altitude shots for dramatic effect. Technical Equipment Insights [17:16:18]: Russ explains different types of drones, focusing on the DJI Mavic Air 2S for cinematic shots and the DJI FPV for dynamic fast-moving footage. Drone Versus Handheld Videography [19:44:00]: Discussing finding a balance between using drone shots versus handheld gimbal shots. Shooting Strategy and Timing [23:16:00]: Details about optimal shooting times, with cinematic footage best captured during golden hour and technical hole-by-hole footage during midday. Working Around Golfers [24:55:00]: Discussion of strategies for filming while the course is active and considerations for capturing footage with or without players present. Multiple Day Advantages [27:12:00]: Discussion of why multiple shooting days are beneficial for capturing the best possible footage and ensuring complete coverage. Investment Value [29:16:00]: Explanation of why professional drone footage is a worthwhile investment for clubs, potentially lasting for years on their website and marketing materials. Questions to Ask a Drone Photographer Before Hiring [31:45:00]: Russ suggests asking photographers for samples of the artist's previous work alongside shot-specific insights. Final Thoughts [32:35:00]: Final thoughts are shared and Russ shares his profile, @birds_eye_film (Instagram), alongside his email: Russell.birdseyeview@gmail.com.…
 
In the big picture of club improvements, updating bylaws and reviewing governance is about as uninteresting and unsexy as it gets. Most club leaders would rather spend these golden years of private clubs dreaming up capital improvements - which is great, but taking care of governance also matters. In this episode, we check in with David Chag and Denise Kuprionis from The Club Council to talk about Club Governance and why it matters for the health of your club today and in the future. Key Moments: Introduction to Club Governance [00:00:13]: Ed Heil introduces the importance of governance and bylaws in private clubs, noting how these "unsexy" elements are crucial for club health and culture. Governance vs. Bylaws Explained [00:04:44]: Denise Kuprionis explains the distinction between bylaws as controlling documents and governance as the broader framework of systems that help directors make decisions and determine club direction. Evolution of Board Oversight [00:09:32]: Discussion of how club boards are moving away from operational involvement toward true governance roles, with emphasis on the need for bylaws to reflect this shift. Communication and Transparency [00:20:07]: David Chag emphasizes the critical role of proper communication in maintaining trust, noting how clubs have developed more sophisticated communications departments to meet modern expectations. Board Succession Planning [00:24:01]: Denise Kuprionis discusses the importance of year-round succession planning for boards and the need to ensure diverse perspectives and skills in the boardroom. Modern Meeting Adaptations [00:26:17]: Discussion of how clubs are adapting governance practices for younger generations, including the use of Zoom meetings and respecting time constraints of volunteer board members. Bylaw Review Process [00:29:18]: Explanation of how most club bylaws don't need complete revamping but rather strategic updates to reflect modern governance practices. Board Culture and Performance [00:35:56]: Discussion of how culture is defined by accepted behaviors in the boardroom and the importance of setting clear expectations for board member conduct. Signs of Needed Governance Review [00:41:51]: Identification of warning signs that indicate a club needs to revisit its governance structure, including lack of transparency and member dissatisfaction. Steps for Improvement [00:45:38]: David Chag outlines actionable steps for improving club governance, emphasizing that it's about getting better rather than fixing what's "broken."…
 
Assessments. They seem to go hand-in-hand with private club membership. Many clubs have voted to assess members for new amenities in recent years, and many more are considering doing the same in the months ahead. Like death and taxes, clubs see assessments as a necessary evil, but are they? In this episode we talk to Jim Butler, CEO of Club Benchmarking who shares his perspective on assessments and how club’s can plan for the future more thoughtfully. What he says, may surprise you. Key Moments: • Introduction to Club Assessments [00:00:13]: Ed Heil introduces the topic of club assessments and how they, along with initiation fees, are two factors that often concern prospective club members. • Not-for-Profit Business Model [00:04:45]: Jim Butler explains the unique challenge of private clubs being not-for-profit entities, contrasting with how board members often try to apply for-profit thinking to club management. • Capital Intensity of Clubs [00:06:51]: Butler reveals that the average club has $28 million in gross assets while making no profit, making clubs one of the most capital-intensive industries. • Three Main Capital Sources [00:09:10]: Discussion of how clubs fund capital through three main sources: capital dues, initiation fees, and assessments, typically split equally between these sources. • The Irrigation System Story [00:18:30]: Butler shares an illuminating story about Thorny Lea Golf Club's 50-year-old irrigation system to explain the concept of capital consumption and member responsibility. • Net Worth Categories [00:24:02]: Description of the three categories of clubs based on net worth trajectory: decreasing (red bucket), flat (yellow bucket), and growing above inflation (25% of industry). • Union League Success Story [00:25:32]: Discussion of how the Union League of Philadelphia's success came from understanding the business model and creating more opportunities that members were willing to pay for. • Board Education Challenge [00:31:12]: Butler addresses the unique challenge of educating rotating board members about the club business model, with boards typically changing 3-4 members annually. • Counter-Intuitive Club Economics [00:34:29]: Explanation of how the most financially successful clubs often have the highest food and beverage subsidies, demonstrating the unique nature of club economics. • Industry Evolution [00:38:26]: Butler discusses the dramatic changes in the club industry from 2019 to 2023, including increased capital generation, facility investments, and unprecedented waiting lists at many clubs.…
 
In the competitive landscape of private clubs, creating a strong, positive culture isn't just a nice-to-have—it's essential when attracting new members and the best talent. Jackie and Three Carpenter are longtime professionals in the club industry and are also authors of the book "People First." Using their years of experience in the private club industry, Three and Jackie are uniquely positioned to share the critical importance of fostering a people-centric culture in private clubs. Their insights offer valuable lessons for club leaders looking to elevate their club's employee experience and, by extension, member satisfaction. Key Moments: Introduction to People First Concept [00:00:44]: Three and Jackie Carpenter are introduced as club leaders and coauthors of "People First: The Five Steps to Pure Human Connection and a Thriving Organization." Employee-Centric Approach [03:56]: Three Carpenter emphasizes the importance of an employee-centric approach as the foundation for great member success in clubs. Credibility in Employee Branding [11:04]: Jackie Carpenter explains the concept of credibility as why someone should work at your organization, emphasizing the importance of consistent employee branding. Candor in Hiring Process [15:42]: The Carpenters discuss the importance of candor in the hiring process, describing it as a transparent, authentic, and genuine conversation rather than an interrogation. Cultivation of New Employees [21:57]: Jackie Carpenter explains the importance of nurturing new employees instead of the old "sink or swim" mentality, emphasizing support and reducing anxiety. Commitment and Team-First Mentality [26:30]: Three Carpenter discusses how to foster a team-first mentality among employees, drawing parallels to successful sports teams and emphasizing collaboration. Empowering Employees to Take Ownership [28:37]: The Carpenters explain the concept of "fluidity" in roles and the importance of empowering employees to take ownership beyond their job descriptions. Formulas for Employee Engagement [31:18]: The podcast discusses three formulas for building employee commitment: Confidence + Comfort = Contribution, Devotion + Daring = Determination, and Energized + Encouragement = Empowerment. The Importance of Caring [35:27]: Jackie Carpenter breaks down the concept of "love" in business using the acronym LOVE (Loyalty, Ownership, Value, Excellence) and emphasizes the importance of focusing on how employees feel. Adapting to Modern Workforce Expectations [39:15]: The Carpenters stress that a people-first mindset is now an expectation of the modern workforce, not just a competitive advantage, and suggest ways for clubs to adapt, including hiring culture-focused staff if needed. Ed Heil [00:00:00] You're listening to Crushing Club Marketing, a podcast for progressive club leaders ready to increase their club's revenue. Time for Change begins right now. Ed Heil [00:00:13] Creating a high performing team in any business doesn't happen by accident. It begins with strong leadership at the top and runs through an entire organization of four clubs through the membership. We know great culture when we see it, but building outstanding culture isn't easy. In this episode, you'll hear from Three and Jackie Carpenter, club leaders and coauthors of the book "People First: The Five Steps to Pure Human Connection and a Thriving Organization.". Ed Heil [00:00:44] Thanks for listening. You know, bad culture when you see it and you also know amazing club culture when you see it. It's those clubs that they kind of seem like they're okay, but you're not really sure, those are the ones you got to wonder about. You can pick up on good and bad culture, by the way the staff treats you, how they talk to you, how helpful they are. And a lot of times it's just how attentive they are. And you also get a sense for culture when you meet the members and you hear how they talk about their club. Three and Jackie Carpenter have spent their entire careers in the private club industry. And in a business where customer service is expected to be at the highest level. They have created dynamic culture by building connected teams everywhere they have gone. If you know the Carpenter's or spent time with them, you know they are enthusiastic. They are focused and really positive. People who are passionate about helping people, especially their teams. They are so committed to helping people, they wrote a book called "People First." I talked to this dynamic duo recently to talk about their book in the Five Steps to Pure Human Connection and a Thriving organization. Jackie and Three, thanks so much for joining us today. Jackie Carpenter [00:02:00] Hi Ed, thanks. Three Carpenter [00:02:01] And we're glad to be here. Very. Ed Heil [00:02:04] It's great catching up. You know, and just in full transparency for for you who's listening. I've known Jackie, and Three, I think we may have met at a CMAA or something in passing at a conference. But Jackie and I have known each other, you know, just in passing as well for several years. And just learning more about your work in leadership has been really, really exciting and really interesting. Jackie Carpenter [00:02:31] Thank you. Yeah, it's been fun. Three Carpenter [00:02:33] Gosh, we've enjoyed it very much. And you know, our involvement with CMAA over the years, we've met so many great people that have had such a huge influence on our lives. Ed Heil [00:02:41] Yeah, that's terrific. Well, let's start let's talk about the book a little bit. What inspired you to write the book People First? Three Carpenter [00:02:49] Well, thanks for asking. You know, Jackie and I had spent a lot of years working in operations of clubs. I still do. And throughout that process, I think we sort of maybe took for granted a little bit internally that the things that we were doing, everybody was doing. And as we would talk to other industry leaders and we talked to people that worked at other places, we were finding out that some of the things we were doing were relatively unique. And my primary focus, and this is what Jackie kind of started maybe moving the book towards was this idea that we believed to have great member success. The foundational approach had to be having an employee culture and having an employee centric belief in everything we did. You build the foundation with the employees and then those other things like financial health or member engagement, all those things come from that foundation. Clubs notoriously believe we're only care about member experience. It's all about the members. That is true. Ultimately that that is the byproduct however of having great employee culture. Jackie Carpenter [00:03:56] Yeah. I think one thing that a lot of clubs discovered, especially during the Covid years, was that it doesn't matter how great your facilities are if you don't have employees to operate the club or to run those facilities, it can't be a great member experience. And so we really wanted to create, to write this book, to sort of create a model for others to follow on what they could do to really create a positive employee experience, a positive employee culture, and ultimately then a thriving organization. Three Carpenter [00:04:28] You had said all through the writing, though I think it was really interesting. Lots of people write books to identify what's wrong. Jackie Carpenter [00:04:35] Yeah. Three Carpenter [00:04:35] You know, this is it. This is the problem. This is it. And the reality is. Jackie Carpenter [00:04:40] Yes. So you need to change this. You need to change this. You need to change this. Right. But then you get done reading the book and you're like, Wow, I need to change this. What do I do? Ed Heil [00:04:48] Right, Right. Jackie Carpenter [00:04:49] It took us a long time to really delve into this process because we wanted you to be able to read the book and go, I know where to start, or I have some ideas to go and implement, or I can follow this roadmap to create change in my organization. Ed Heil [00:05:04] Yeah, that's it's an interesting point because you've got so many anecdotes and examples and case studies that you point to throughout the book that as you're reading it, you realize like, wow, this I mean, you know, let's face it, for a lot of people, you know, caring about your employees seems really kind of fluffy. Like, yeah, that's what I got to do. I got to care more. But it's like, the answer is yes. And when you look at how some of you know, world class businesses operate, that is what they do. So what let me ask you this. In that spirit, why is it what have you seen in the club industry that makes it really important for club leaders to to read? I mean, is there it seems to me like a lot of other industries where there's, you know, leadership challenges or understanding of what healthy culture looks like. But is there something that you've noticed about the club industry that makes us even more relevant? Three Carpenter [00:05:59] Yeah, club leaders are too busy for me as well, right? Every one of us are going a million different directions, seven days a week, you know, 18 hour days. Sometimes all those things happen. And then you say, Well, yeah, but look, you've got to focus first on this. And everyone says, Wait a minute, I don't know that I have time. We will tell you it has to be the number one priority. All those other things have to come second. And none of us think that way. And this whole book was intended to be a reminder of prioritizing the employee first kind of message. Those other things will come. Jackie Carpenter [00:06:35] Yeah, it's really an investment at you know, if you start with the employees, you're ultimately making your life easier down the road. But but it's an investment first and foremost. Ed Heil [00:06:45] Is this is some of that though some of the challenge with that because so many people that are club leaders or say, general managers. Right. They rise up on the food and bev side, they come up on the golf side and they're very. That work can be very tactical. It's like I've got to execute. And they fill their days with executing tasks rather than saying, take a step back and say, Hang on. I don't have to execute, I just have to help people see a greater vision or, as you know, the MVP's and really make some of that stuff very clear. But is that part of it as well, or how does that play into, you know, the fact that everyone is really, really busy? Three Carpenter [00:07:23] Well, I think you're 100% correct. Each one of us just digs too much into tasks. It happens to me occasionally as well. I actually try to spend time each day making sure I'm getting out and doing the employee touch stuff, doing the things where they see me, talk to me. We get lots of interaction. You know, you had made the comment about caring. That piece, it carries so much weight because it's such a simple concept. It seems so remedial. But the reality of it is when the employees realize it, you as an as a leader, really genuinely care about everything in their lives, not just their time at work, but everything. Then they work harder. They care more themselves, more loyal. It's that idea that, you know, they they that lead by example show people the care and everyone else follows it like that. Jackie Carpenter [00:08:10] So that like the people first mentality. Right. And is really where you recognize that it's your people are one of your biggest assets. They're not a tool used to create a member experience, but rather they are an asset that needs to be invested in and cared for and nurtured and developed. And so when you start operating with a people first mindset and using that to make all of your decisions or to kind of lead the way in the way that you lead your club, there are a realm of, you know, trickle down effects and ramifications of that that really, truly benefit the culture and frankly, the overall health of the organization. Three Carpenter [00:08:53] Years ago, someone might have looked at a club and like, my gosh, that club is so great. And they think of it like, because the golf course is so good. Jackie Carpenter [00:09:01] The facilities are amazing. Three Carpenter [00:09:03] The reality is the clubs that are wildly successful. Stop. Don't worry about that. Go dig in and go look at what's going on in their employee culture. Jackie Carpenter [00:09:12] It's about the people. Three Carpenter [00:09:13] We'll guarantee that is their strongest component. Jackie Carpenter [00:09:17] Fun fact we almost called the book. It's about the people. Three Carpenter [00:09:19] But yeah, People First, won. Ed Heil [00:09:22] It's concise. It's not, you know, So let's I love to just dive into and we're not going to we're not going to dissect the book. So if you're listening, think, my gosh, you're going to dissect this whole thing. For us to be able to talk through the five C's that in just I've mentioned, credibility, candor, cultivation, commitment and care. And to start with the fact that I think it's important that for the listener to recognize and they may not feel this way, but just by my perspective, I'm anxious to hear yours as well. You have to believe this stuff. It's not enough to say, yeah, we care about our team. You've got to you've got to live it. You've got to really believe in not just like now I got to say this thing because I know that that matters, but it's because people smell B.S. a million miles away. And maybe that's a good, you know, a as good a point to start as as any with credibility. And let's talk about credibility and what that means in, you know, in the people first context. Jackie Carpenter [00:10:22] Yeah, absolutely. So credibility is really why someone should work at your organization. It is who you are as an employer. It is your message to the outside world. And clubs are really great at why someone should join their club. They spend a lot of time and effort, you know, communicating that and prioritizing why a member should join their club and kind of historically haven't been fabulous at why someone should want to work at their club. And that is a that's what we call credibility today. It is your message to the outside world as to why somebody should want to come and work for you and what is. Three Carpenter [00:11:04] Your employee brand? Jackie Carpenter [00:11:05] Yeah, Yeah. And it has to be consistent. It has to be true and it has to be you have to be an employer that your employees can trust. And just like you said, you know, people can smell it. You can't tell someone, we're a great place to work, we're a great place to work. And then they show up and it's awful. Ed Heil [00:11:21] Right, Right. Three Carpenter [00:11:22] Years ago, Jack and I worked together at a club in Texas. And one of things I loved watching her do when she was helping us build that culture from the beginning, she would bring in a new employee as opposed to saying, my gosh, we're so great. And all these things that at that moment were not actually true. She would say, Listen, we're hiring you because we want you to come here and help us because right now we're here. We're going to be here. And as we go through the process, you're going to help make us better. And the reality of aspirational thinking and aspirational leadership, which is exactly what that was. Those people wanted to be part of the rebuild, the rebirth of what it would be our culture. Yeah. Ed Heil [00:12:03] Right. And I was just going to say, and that might be that one of the most difficult first steps to take because you're laying that down and you better have a plan for how you're going to execute that. I mean, if you're the new sheriff in town, that's one thing. You sort of have this clean slate. But if you're listening, you think, gosh, I've got a culture issue and if you make this decision, boy, you better be ready to back it up right now. Jackie Carpenter [00:12:27] Yeah. And it really starts. I mean, we are all about making things easy for people because we get again, club leaders are busy. But it starts with what do current employees say about you? Why do they like working there? What don't they like about working there? You know, if people are showing up for orientation and they're never coming back again, it's probably a red flag. Or if you're hiring people, you know, on the spot and then they go, yeah, again, a red flag. So there are some things there, you know, to really dig into and take a look at as to what your employees say about you. And that can be really insightful. It can be terrifying to to some people, but it's a question worth asking because they are the people you know. Again, it all starts with them. Ed Heil [00:13:13] Yeah. You talk about in the book, you know, in the credibility chapter about mission, vision and purpose. Why is it so important that that is clear to everyone in the organization? I would imagine first and then. But what's what's you help the listener understand why that's important. Jackie Carpenter [00:13:35] To people today. Purpose matters more than ever. It's not about a paycheck. It's not about necessarily even a title anymore. I mean, that used to be pay and title used to be the things that workers were seeking. And today it's much more about people knowing what they do matters and having a bigger purpose and a better mission. And I think clarifying the mission and the values and this is kind of what we reference in the book is people want clarity and they want to know what that is. It's I don't know if you've ever worked for someone where or in a club, they're kind of notorious for this, too, is when one manager says something, right? And then another manager says something totally different. And then a board member tells you something totally different and you're like, Well, what am I supposed to do? I just got three directives in an hour, right? So that clarity, that communication helps. What were you going to ask? Well, I. Three Carpenter [00:14:26] Was just going to say, too, you know, sometimes we also, as employees of a club in this example, we come in and think our job is to, you know, serve a hamburger. Yeah, whatever your, like, basic task might be. The reality is that isn't anything to do with that. And through the MVP process, we think that paints the bigger picture, that what you're really creating is an employee and member culture. I mean, that's what every employee is responsible for. By the way, here's some tasks you do while we try to work for these bigger things. People want to be part of the bigger part of it, so it gets pretty mundane to imagine. I'm just here on the floor. Just sweep the floor. I mean, that's exactly right. Ed Heil [00:15:06] Yeah. Helping people understand why their work matters is just is so, so important. And it's not like to your point earlier, Three, it's everyone's busy and it's like, wait, I have to tell him why this matters is like, yeah, "Ed's not very bright. He needs help." No, I'm just kidding. So that wasn't very nice. So candor, let's talk a little bit about candor, because that is one of those Well, in communications, candor can be very helpful and clear communication or on alignment. But within the book of People First. Talk to me a little bit about what candor means. Jackie Carpenter [00:15:42] Yeah. So candor is what we reference as when you're hiring an employee, right? And it's really the hiring process. So we say that when you're hiring someone, it needs to be a transparent, authentic, genuine conversation. It's not an interrogation. I don't know if you've ever been interrogated in a job interview before, Ed, but it's not something that's very comfortable or very rewarding as an employee. And especially today when it is a probably the most brutal job market out there. I mean, to try and get employees today, you have to be at the top of your game because if not, that person's probably has several other job offers on the table. Right. So. Or are being pursued by other employers. And so the candid process is really about telling people what it's like to work at your organization, why they should want to work at your organization. And it's really connecting with them. And I think that's a piece that so often it becomes an interrogation where maybe the hiring managers like Ed, why are you good enough to work here instead of, Hey, tell me about yourself. What do you like doing? And and maybe let's see if if there's, you know, ways that. We can align right. And your mitt, your values and our values. Let's see if they go together. Three Carpenter [00:17:01] Well, and it's about being authentic and vulnerable at the same time. And let's be honest, in the club space, it's all about image and, you know, all buttoned up and that whole thing. But, you know, I got to tell you, the reality is for the great leaders in our industry that are vulnerable and authentic, I mean, especially in the interview process, because working for an institution doesn't create loyalty. Loyalty comes from the premise that you are making a connection with this potential interviewee. They meet you and they think, Wow, he was really honest. He was really open, like very vulnerable, told us about the goods in the ads, like those kind of things. People want to work for that, right? Jackie Carpenter [00:17:42] Right. It's that connecting piece that it comes back to you. It's more about working for a leader or working for a person who genuinely cares, versus we need somebody who can come in here tomorrow. And these are this is what we need from you. And there's not a lot of what what do you want from us? Right. Three Carpenter [00:17:59] Well, we have preached for a long time at our clubs. "Loyalty is to one another." It's not "loyalty is to blank club". And I'm sorry, that's just a harsh fact. Jackie Carpenter [00:18:10] It's about the people. Three Carpenter [00:18:11] It is about those people. And and when you're in the interview process, keeping that in your mind all the time when we start interviews, I'm telling you it is very low key and we open with something like, Hey, we're not doing the kind of normal interview thing. We are. Jackie Carpenter [00:18:26] Having a conversation. Three Carpenter [00:18:27] Having a conversation. Ed Heil [00:18:29] And isn't that really the result of the type of culture that you have in your club? Right. Because if you are able to be vulnerable and authentic in an interview, you're telling that person, this is how we operate as well. Isn't that right? I mean, and then you and I thought there's an interesting anecdote in the book as well about the young man who was interviewing for the job but wasn't the right person. And and that person shared something that was very personal that I think is his parent passing away. That changed the the whole perspective of that of that person and how in it's hard to get someone you're interviewing to be that open about something that's very intimate and very personal. But what it says about them when they're able to is huge. Jackie Carpenter [00:19:22] Absolutely. Yeah. And I think a lot of times interviewers get really hung up on the resumé or where they've worked in the past, and we're guilty of that, too. We've been there and done that. But what we have found is when you focus more on the person and why they want to work there and what they're looking for, and you really cater, you know, that interview to getting to know that person, it's a much better indicator of whether they're going to fit in your club culture or not, or they're going to be a good fit for your team versus, Hey, have you ever waited tables before or do you know all the drinks to bartend? Like, we can teach people those skills, but we can't teach you to be engaging and outgoing and happy. Can't do that, right? Three Carpenter [00:20:03] Yeah. Well, and sometimes just finding whatever their triggers are to get them to relax. Yeah. We tell a different story in the book where we talk a lot about somebody who is an unbelievably successful GM today in our industry who was bombing and an intern interview like no one one's ever seen. And. As I watched it happen and I really started to feel really bad for this young man. I was digging into his resume and, you know, had taken a second and started to realize that knowing what his resume said, there had to be a belief in leadership based on the military and Indiana basketball. And when I bridge the question about those things, his posture changed, his body changed and... Jackie Carpenter [00:20:48] Found the thing that he was passionate about. Right. Able to draw that out versus just asking questions because he was saying what he thought we wanted to hear. Right. So where you change the game. And that's really what candor is about. Three Carpenter [00:21:01] Sometimes it's as silly as asking about what movies people like or songs or books, because all of a sudden they have to think about themselves personally, not at work. And when they relate that, their whole demeanor changes. And I think that's really important. Jackie Carpenter [00:21:14] And that's something I think, again, Ed, club leaders really get hung up on is we're hiring a new, you know, golf pro. Where did they work before? What is their background, What's all their credentials, Not necessarily who they are as a person. And does this really fit who we want at our club, running our golf programing and, you know, teaching our children and those kinds of things? That's where that mindset shift really comes into play. Ed Heil [00:21:38] Yeah, terrific. I love it. Let's talk about cultivation. And I think there is a line that says something like, just once you've hired them, it doesn't stop there. Tell, tell, tell us more. What do you know when you think about cultivating those those people, what does that look like on a day to day basis and why is it so important? Jackie Carpenter [00:21:57] Yeah. So [00:21:58]I usually show this really awesome picture of a girl pushing a guy into the swimming pool and he's like, falling and she's laughing because that's what cultivation feels like a lot of times or has been in, you know, historically, that's the way that it feels is you're kind of feeding someone to the wolves like it's a sink or swim period, where you got to weed out the weak ones. Hey, you know what? If you if you can't figure it out and you can't get it here, then you shouldn't be working here. And we will tell you today that is the wrong approach. Okay? You are scaring people away. You are drowning people and they're not coming back because today it is all about a very nurturing and supportive period. Because the thing people forget is that when you're new, you feel stupid. And I don't know about you, but we have yet to come across anybody who loves to feel stupid. [46.2s] And so if you can bring in a new person and nurturing and really caring for them and help get them up to speed by answering their questions and eliminating those yucky feelings of anxiety and stress and uncomfortableness, you can get them over that quickly. You're going to have a much better success rate at them coming back the next day and them really taking on the job and the role. Three Carpenter [00:23:13] Well, I think if you think about gardens or flowers or you talk about this a great deal, but that old cliche of you get out of it what you put into it. So you take time and you take care of it and you grow. Jackie Carpenter [00:23:24] Plant the seed and you continue to nurture them. Three Carpenter [00:23:27] Yeah, all of that is really, really true in this phase because so frequently you've hired him and you just let him go. And Jack is exactly right. That culture is a decade ago. Jackie Carpenter [00:23:39] Well, and it's hard again, we've said club leaders are busy. Right. So we make a lot of assumptions. Hey, I noticed, you know, on your resume, you've done this before, so here you go. Here's the dining room. You know, have at it. Holler if you have any questions. And that doesn't work. You know, that really doesn't work today because, again, people are uncomfortable. And I don't know if you know this. We've heard this several times and seen it in our research that younger generations of workers today, this is terrifying, feel more comfortable ghosting. You just not showing up, not telling you they quit then telling their leader or their boss that they don't understand something or they don't feel confident or telling them that they have a question about something. It's easier for them just to not show up again. Three Carpenter [00:24:23] Think about that. The power of that is absolutely shocking. Jackie Carpenter [00:24:27] During that cultivation phase, if we're not meeting with people on a daily basis and saying, Hey, what can I help you with, what questions do you have here? Let me show you this again. I know. Let me give you another tour of the club. I know it's a big facility. I don't want you to be overwhelmed. What are those things of anxiety and stress and those kinds of things? Because those are the feelings that make people not come back again. Ed Heil [00:24:48] Right. You know, it's funny you said that. Why we wanted to come back. That's always a good thing. We'll have a little joke that someone comes back for day two. It's like, all right, you came back. That's. Exactly. But the you said, you know how no one likes to feel stupid. Imagine, like the value when you make people feel really smart. Yeah. And to the point of what you're saying about cultivation and even going back to credibility, it's like, you know, you hire someone think, you know, under this pretense that you're all these things and then they get it's like, my gosh, they're not like that at all. Right? And I mean, you've probably seen these things too, where sometimes you make a hire where boy, you're not really sure if they're the right person. And in fact, you're starting to you're pretty convinced they're not. But when you take that time to water that flower, when you take that time to nurture and figure out what's getting in the way, how they can just really take off. And, you know, that's it's such a great win when that happens as well. Let's talk about commitment in this. I mean, I love this the section because there are just so many pieces to it. But and maybe if we could start with one of the thoughts that really I think is so hard for people. How do you get people to think of the team first instead of themselves? Like, I got to take care of myself before I think of like, you know, you said you said earlier, I mean, there's this idea of being accountable not to the club, but to your coworkers and the team that you're used to. So how do you how do you do that and how does that fit in with commitment? And, you know, is. You know, as a part of this this whole thinking. Three Carpenter [00:26:30] Well, just quick on how you get everyone to kind of believe the power of that. I think that we do lots and lots of education trying to tell people about and remind people the feelings they've had when they've actually been part of, as an example, a successful sports team and how that sort of builds camaraderie and how they feel sort of doing it together with that kind of person standing next to them. You know, you think back, we use the restaurant part of the club world. When you think back to the idea that we were in competition for gratuities and we were in competition, you know, for that table, because that one tips better than that one. And all those things that maybe happened a couple of decades ago today. You know, you think about it, we're really working together. Let me help you be great. And I think we try to create a culture by which people are really believing they're not in it alone. Not only do we believe that sort of the traditional hierarchy, you know, of a dictatorial leadership style is really inverse, where we as the the upper leaders are really on the bottom supporting you up and then all your teammates are there trying to help make you successful. The power of it is quite remarkable. Jackie Carpenter [00:27:36] Yeah. And, you know, it's helping people understand that members don't join the golf course or they don't join the tennis department. They join the club. And so we're only as strong as our weakest link, right? If 90% of the club is awesome, but the golf course sucks, then guess what? That is impacting our experience negatively. And so I think helping employees see how they're really tied to everybody and if they're great, that's awesome. But if the person next to them sucks, it's making them look bad. So it is that kind of link really there. And the kind of the biggest thing too, with commitment is it's all about getting employees to own it and to take ownership of their roles and really seeing what they do every day and really to own it. So, you know, we go we use this example in the book to it about Disney, right? And it's everyone's job to keep the park clean. It's what we call fluidity. It's where there is. Yes, you have a job. You know. Three Carpenter [00:28:37] These are the tasks that you own for sure. Jackie Carpenter [00:28:40] You have a job description, but there's a lot of other stuff there that goes on where if you see something dirty lying on the floor, you pick it up. If there's a member walking in and they need the door open, you open the door, Right? It's those kinds of things that go well beyond the job description. And so with commitment, it's about, you know, really investing in those people and helping them see that you want them to take ownership of their role. And I think that sometimes is challenging in the club space because we get a lot of board members or leaders who are maybe micromanaging. We're nit picking where, you know, digging in. We're trying to control things where we're not allowing our leaders to lead. Three Carpenter [00:29:18] Well, no, just back to the idea of a dictatorial leadership style. When you start to have a collaborative leadership style and instead of subservience, which in in the club industry was rampant for, I'm sure, decades, where it was so much based on this idea that you're just there to do whatever every member, you do. Jackie Carpenter [00:29:36] What you're told. Right. Don't think you just do what we tell you to do. Three Carpenter [00:29:40] We believe strongly that what you're really trying to do instead is at the lowest levels. It does make a difference all the way up through the organization. You're creating a leadership culture so that these folks are thinking and solving problems and having fun, really making a difference. Jackie Carpenter [00:29:53] Right. And one of the things that has blown our mind and over the course since the book came out, when we talk about ownership, is how many people tell us they just needed permission to own it. They needed permission from their boss, that, hey, you know what, Ed, you're doing a great job. I believe in you. I want you to own it. Like take it on. I don't want to be babysitting you. I don't want to feel like I've got to be checking in on you all the time. I want you to take it on. I want you to own it and then let me know what I can do to support you or what questions you have because I want to help you win. And that's a conversation that so many times people assume they don't need to have. They just expect you to own it. But that person needs that confidence and that, you know, encouragement really to to take that on. Ed Heil [00:30:39] Absolutely. And, you know, the way we always stick to it and it's okay if you make a mistake and if you do have that leeway. Right. And one of my favorite sayings is don't deprive someone the opportunity to make a mistake. Yeah. Because they learn so much. Right. Jackie Carpenter [00:30:53] And it really comes down to how do people respond when a mistake happens, too. Right. Yeah. Yeah, exactly. Ed Heil [00:31:00] Absolutely. Let's break that down just a little bit more. I'm not a math guy, but plus, plus signs and equal signs with words. I actually think I can do that. So maybe just some quick thoughts around each one. And this is sort of building that commitment. Confidence plus comfort equals contribution. What does that mean? Jackie Carpenter [00:31:18] Well, people really want to contribute, but they're not going to contribute if they're not confident or comfortable to do that. Right. And again, we literally just made. The case is if they're not confident and comfortable enough to try or to put themselves out there or to take ownership of it, guess what? They're not going to do that. They're not going to contribute at their best. But when a club is thriving is really when everybody's contributing their best, right, they're giving their all and contributing. So we have to instill those things in people. Ed Heil [00:31:47] All right. Devotion plus daring equals determination. Jackie Carpenter [00:31:50] Yeah. So a little bit of challenge is good. And, you know, we want to spark people's passion and help them see beyond just sweeping the floor. Right. Three Carpenter [00:32:01] We love creating new ways, thinking outside the box, like all those things all take a little courage, a little bit of daring, right? So I think that's a big piece of it. Jackie Carpenter [00:32:09] Yeah, absolutely. Three Carpenter [00:32:10] And when they care about it enough, I mean, that devotion piece and then they go take that little bit of a risk. And you really see those big, big, big results. Ed Heil [00:32:19] Yeah, Interesting. You put those two together when they care enough that they say, what if we tried this? Right. Energized. Plus, encouragement equals empowerment. Jackie Carpenter [00:32:31] Yeah. And again, kind of comes back to giving people permission, right? Energizing people and encouraging them. That is where we see, you know, people succeed. And I think so often we say this a lot is we assume people are getting encouraged outside of their, you know, in their daily lives or not at work. We make assumptions about that. And what if we stop and think about at work is really probably the the place people are encouraged the most. And so what an opportunity to, you know, really energize people, get them excited about it and really empower them to to own it. Right. Empower them to take it on and to show us, you know, give us their best. Three Carpenter [00:33:13] Yeah. Well, I think that energy thing, you know, you talk a lot about being an energy giver as opposed to an energy sucker. And we think about it from a leadership perspective, being an energy giver, that is that energized thing. Yeah. No matter how I feel as a leader, I do my very, very, very best to always be in a very high energy sort of mode because I believe that's a little bit contagious Jackie Carpenter [00:33:36] Positive. Three Carpenter [00:33:36] In changes. And I think that's really what energize. I'm trying to energize others. Right? Jackie Carpenter [00:33:41] Yeah. Ed Heil [00:33:42] Interesting. Foss Swim Schools. Local based swim school. And they have this thing when they hire new swim instructors, they say they look for the light bulb. Can they be a light bulb for their kids? So when some kid comes to the pool, "Oh Three is here today! High Five!" And that's you know, the way I always think about that is just in people's light. Do they have a light bulb? Do they light up, you know, putting them all together, contribution plus determination plus empowerment, which is the outcome of the others, equals bold achievement. What is that like? Help Help put some context around that. Jackie Carpenter [00:34:18] Yeah. Bold achievement is really what, you know, another name for thriving. I mean, ultimately, it's where everybody is doing their best. They're caring about it. They're contributing at a high level. You know, when people are disengaged, Ed, you know, there's a gazillion studies about how that negatively impacts an organization when people are disengaged or they're just clicking, the mouse is just working, right. They're punching a clock. Right. And when we can truly get people who are engaged and they're caring about it and they're looking for solutions and they're asking questions that aren't being asked yet and they're inventing and creating. Well, that's the secret sauce right there. That's where the magic happens. But it all those other formulas. Right. Kind of have to be in play because they all add up and they're all sort of stair steps or building blocks to get to that result. Ed Heil [00:35:12] Yeah. Got it. Let's let's bring this home with with kind of how we started, which is care and caring. And one of my it, one of my favorite sayings is that people don't care about what you know until they know you care. Right. It's just a huge thing. Jackie Carpenter [00:35:27] Yeah. And caring is really what it is. But it's evident in all the other steps. The four steps prior is you have to show that you genuinely care about your employees, that you are willing to invest in them. It comes down to really this and this might freak some people out, but it comes down to really loving your employees. And we know love in business freaks people out. It's you know, we run from it because we've been trained, you know, by our four years that like, no love in business. Right. Ed Heil [00:35:57] Right. Exactly. Jackie Carpenter [00:35:58] But really, think about it this way. Love is loyalty, ownership, value and excellence. And it comes down to we show that we're loyal to them and we're going to help them succeed so that they can be loyal to us. It's ownership that we want to give them permission to own it and help them have the resources and everything they need so they can own it and feel comfortable in their jobs so that they can own their jobs. And then value is really about where you're seeing their value as a human being and a contributor in our workforce so that they can produce value. And then the E comes down to excellence, and it's where we give them an employee experience that is excellent so they can produce excellence for our members. And what we haven't talked about yet is, Ed. What care really is and what people first really is, is a focus on how our employees feel. And that's a warm and fuzzy, touchy feely thing. We get it. But when we are paying attention to how we're making our employees feel, whether that is overwhelmed, frustrated, micromanaged, or whether that's empowered and energized and comfortable and confident, those are the things we have to be noticing. Because when people don't feel good at work, guess what? They're not contributing. They're not engaged. And they may or may not come back the next day. That's the reality of the world we're living in right now. Ed Heil [00:37:26] Yeah. It's so interesting, you know? And who doesn't like it when someone asks, How are you doing? Yeah. You know, and I do. Jackie Carpenter [00:37:34] What can I do to help you and. Ed Heil [00:37:35] Right. Jackie Carpenter [00:37:36] The day. Ed Heil [00:37:37] And, you know, we talk about this sometimes a storyteller when someone says, I'm doing all right, you know what prevents you from saying just all right? Jackie Carpenter [00:37:45] Yeah. Ed Heil [00:37:45] You know, like, how do I get you from being all right to, like, amazing, right? And maybe you can. Maybe you can't put that level of of concern and interest in someone goes such a long way. Jackie Carpenter [00:37:57] Absolutely. Ed Heil [00:37:58] Yeah. So, I mean, you just said this is a touchy feely stuff. We don't like talking about love and business, that's for sure. Right. Which is so true. I mean, and it doesn't. It doesn't really make sense to me. But how do you what do you recommend? What do you recommend for club leaders that hear this? And go, "Yeah. I can't do that at my club. I'm not you know, we're not really that's not the type of team we are. It's not the type of club we are." How do you how do you help people take that first step? What is the what is the hardest. How do you get them to push through that? Three Carpenter [00:38:36] Well, a couple of quick things. One, we think that, you know, since Covid, Jackie and I will tell you that for, you know, 20 years prior, this was always a competitive advantage that the clubs that we worked at, we were having success with sort of this modeling. Right. And and it was it was kind of winning on the other side of that, being honest. Now, after Covid and the pandemic, it's no longer a competitive advantage. It's an absolute must for everybody. So even those clubs are like, gosh, you know, we're more prim and proper than that or, you know, whatever it is. The reality is today you've got to build this strong foundation of culture, you know, before you can get the other things, because. Jackie Carpenter [00:39:15] It's an expectation of the workforce today. They expect that the people first mindset is going to be in play. Three Carpenter [00:39:22] And if not, they're going to leave. Jackie Carpenter [00:39:23] They're not going to stick around. Ed Heil [00:39:25] That's right. Right. Yeah. Three Carpenter [00:39:27] So go ahead. Ed Heil [00:39:29] No, you go. Three Carpenter [00:39:30] So just the idea, however, that maybe you as the main leader are not that touchy feely person. That's okay. Go hire somebody who is. Very frankly, make sure you have that sort of culture keeper. It doesn't have to be the general manager. Just as a note. Yeah. Ed Heil [00:39:50] That's so big. I mean, even just for a general manager to know that I. I recognize this being really important. It's not who I am. But I get that I have. You know, I love that. And so it's so important to. Gosh, is going to mention one other thing around the culture stuff and but it's it's escaped me. Jackie Carpenter [00:40:09] Or if it comes back just say so I have a recommendation to add here. Here's what I would say. If a club is struggling with this or that's not who we are or, you know, that's the belief. It's really small things make a big difference. And so some simple changes, some little adjustments. It could maybe simply start with an employee survey. Ask your employees what do they want? What how do they feel about working at the club? What do they wish they could change? What is it that could be very insightful and not that you're going to be able to implement every single thing or change every single thing on that list. But that is a very insightful piece of information that club leaders can look at and then make the decision, Hey, do we need to make some changes? Because our employees say, hey, it sucks working here. Ed Heil [00:41:03] Right, Right, right. Jackie Carpenter [00:41:04] Or we don't like it here. I'm only here because it's a paycheck and I worked here for ten years or I'm hoping to get my bonus or whatever it might be, but that that can be a very telling resource. If club managers or board members are brave enough to ask those questions. Ed Heil [00:41:20] Right. And it is one of those things where be ready to do something. Because there's the other thing that we know too, is that ask people what they think and then don't do anything about. It is it's really tough to remember what I was going to mention about the hiring and caring about your team and having the right culture, which is that, you know, we talk about this quite a bit. You know in some of my my talks is just that how the younger generation wants experiences and part of the experience is having a staff that really cares about you. And you talk about this in the book. If you don't have the right people, they're not going to provide the right experience for your members. And in this time where younger, this younger generations got a lot of options and private clubs might not be their thing. You're not It's just it's yes, it's about attracting the right people, but it's also about creating the right culture for your employees so that your club can grow and be and be healthy as well. So, so many parts that are so valuable. Well, it's a big mountain to climb in for some people. But the book is terrific and so, so needed in not just in the club space, but in all businesses especially, I think. Well, you see it in all sizes. But so often small, medium sized businesses that are really struggling with how to create the right culture. Boy, I know I've had my challenges and this is great information. Thanks so much for your time today. Jackie Carpenter [00:42:48] Thanks, Ed, We appreciate it. Three Carpenter [00:42:50] Well, thanks for all you're doing for the industry and we really appreciate being on today. Thank you so much. Ed Heil [00:42:57] Thank you for listening. If you find this podcast helpful, be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep crushing your club marketing.…
 
Not long ago, a club’s membership director was the receptionist at the front desk. As it related to new member acquisition, that person’s primary job was to provide and receive, membership applications. In some cases, they may also be asked to provide a club tour. However, the idea of the membership director also acting as a salesperson was not only foreign, it was considered tacky and frowned upon. After all, any club worth its salt should never “sell” memberships. Then the recession happened in 2008 and the private club industry had to adapt. It took time and, later, a pandemic to turn the tables on the downward trend, but as clubs rebounded through the 2010s, some clubs struggled and started to revise their perspective on recruiting new members. Emotionally tethered to their past ideas of exclusivity, prestige, and privilege, some clubs were forced to reinvent themselves. It was during this time that Melissa Hansen entered the private club industry as the Director of Marketing and Membership at Hammock Bay Golf & Country Club. A lifelong learner and networker, Melissa became a member of the Membership Directors of Southwest Florida (MDASF) and launched her career as a membership professional. Today, Melissa is the Director of Marketing and Membership at a private club in Naples, where she has been since 2011. She’s also a consultant and educator to membership professionals providing content and Masterclasses to those eager to transform their careers. Melissa routinely fills her classes and online training sessions with helpful content geared towards people entering the industry as well as those who are more seasoned. Episode Highlights 2:38 - What inspired Melissa to start her consulting practice 5:50 - How the membership director role has changed over the years 8:13 - Prioritizing marketing tactics in the digital age 9:36 - Using chat messages on club websites 12:38 - Make it easy for people to learn about your club 15:46 - Managing the current workload of a membership director while building for the future 16:05 - The value of a CRM (customer relationship management) platform 18:55 - How Melissa uses HubSpot to improve efficiency 19:59 - The membership director needs to be the sales person 21:28 - Social media as part of a club's marketing strategy 24:43 - Creating FOMO (fear of missing out) in prospective members 28:00 - Important skills to be a membership director today 30:27 - The value of investing in your people Ed Heil [00:00:00] You are listening to Crushing Club Marketing, a podcast for progressive club leaders ready to increase their club's revenue. Time for change begins right now. [00:00:13] Marketing and communications isn't what it used to be in the private club industry. And if you do what you've always done, you get what you always got. Which isn't too bad for clubs that never worry about driving membership. But for most clubs, driving new members is an ongoing concern. Melissa Hansen is a consultant for membership directors and an evangelist for digital marketing. In this episode, Melissa tells us why change is needed and what club leaders need to know to set a course for long term membership growth. Ed Heil [00:00:44] Well, in our world, it's StoryTeller. Every club should have a Melissa Hansen. She's a membership director. First of all, she's someone who embraces technology to help her do her job better. She cares passionately about her members and her club. She juggles a million things at one time and magically, somehow, she finds time to spend with her family. Now it gets better. Melissa also takes time to help other membership directors grow and learn with her mastermind classes. Her passion is to help them become better membership professionals as well. If you're interested, you can learn more about Melissa's Mastermind classes at Melissahansen.com, and we'll plug that again later at the end of the this episode. But Melissa and I connected recently. We had a terrific conversation about the changing responsibilities of membership directors and the many aspects this job has here in the 21st century. Put it this way, as you know, it isn't the same job it was 20 years ago, and it's actually a job that today transcends all business, not just the club industry, but you got to want to learn. And Melissa has the knowledge, the desire and the platform to teach. Melissa, thanks so much for joining me today. Melissa Hansen [00:02:03] I am so excited. I have been such a fan of your podcast for the longest time, so I'm very excited to be here. Ed Heil [00:02:10] Oh, you're very nice. The old joke is you're the one, it's been it's been a lot of fun to get to know you and spend some time with you. And in Naples at the MDASF. Right. And, seminar and, really, really cool. For people who are not as familiar with you in your work, can you give me a little background about, like, how how did you start your consulting practice? Like what inspired you to do that? Melissa Hansen [00:02:38] Yeah. So, I would definitely say that. So a couple of years back, I was the president of the organization, the membership directors of Southwest Florida, and I was on the board for about seven years. And I think we're we're lucky in that organization because we really have such a big group. There's now about 100, people in our direct area that are part of that association. [00:03:03]And through the seven years, really what I saw and I felt was not only the opportunity to get to know so many membership and marketing professionals in the area, but I was also meeting so many of the general managers, and what we would see was they would have a new hire on board, and there was really kind of a need for, to educate that membership professional. And so I just kind of decided to jump in, I've always been like an education junkie, and I've always, you know, always continued to educate myself, you know, after graduating from college, I always want to know the latest and the greatest. And, I really what I was trying to do was to take what I know and share it, you know, with the people that that I worked with that were in my role and really it just kind of spurred from there. [51.5s] We it first started local and now it's gone national. I work with over about 350 clubs, throughout the country. Ed Heil [00:04:04] Wow. And yet you're also a membership director. How do you have time to do all this stuff? And you're a mom? Melissa Hansen [00:04:13] I mean, there definitely aren't enough hours in the day. I'm not going to lie with you. You know, it's not easy. But I think at the end of the day, what it comes down to is it's my passion. Membership and marketing and the private club industry is my everything, and I just can't turn my brain off. Ed Heil [00:04:31] You've got so many educational opportunities for for your students. What do you, how do you hope they benefit the most? Melissa Hansen [00:04:39] I really just serve to inspire them. And just I love doing these. We do kind of discovery calls before we get started on a one on one and really kind of go through maybe a challenge or two that they're having at their club. And I think that after so many years of being in the industry that you've just you've tested it all right, you realize that there's things that work and things that don't work. And so I really just say, okay, this is your challenge. These are three things that worked for me. These are three things that have worked for other students at other clubs. Let's go ahead and try implementing these at yours and and helping you get through this challenge. Ed Heil [00:05:19] Yeah. Got it. The, there has been so much change. And, you know, in the time that you've been in the industry and, and really, you know, dare say that after 2010 there's been, you know, quite a bit of change with so much digital, presence in private clubs. What do you think, are some of the biggest changes? You've seen in the last 15 years and how those affected the membership director role. Melissa Hansen [00:05:50] Yeah, there there definitely been a lot of changes. I think as you mentioned, you know, the customer, the digital customer journey has been the thing that has changed so much and the way that our members and prospective members, really kind of, you know, expect to be communicated with, you know, 15 years ago as a membership professional, we might be pumping out a quarterly newsletter, or we might be creating a flyer, to promote an event. But now, as a membership professional, we are in charge of not only developing the website, but continuously keeping it updated. We are in charge of social media. We are charge of lead management and managing a CRM system. You know, our clubs have mobile apps and we're using push notifications and all that. Technology has just evolved so rapidly, and it is up to us as membership and marketing professionals to really continue to be educated and learn how to grow with those products. Ed Heil [00:06:57] You know, you say that and, you know, and I, I love the the willingness to say it's our responsibility. But that's a lot of stuff. I mean, is it how realistic is it if if, you know, if I'm a general manager listening to this, this is like our opportunity to say like, is it realistic to say you got to know all this stuff and you know, your newsletters and all the other things? Is it is it realistic, do you think? Melissa Hansen [00:07:24] I mean, I think it is essential. I think it is essential to be a thriving club, you know, a waitlisted club, you know, a club where you are, where you need to be. Do I think that everything has to be implemented at once or by one person? No. I mean, I'm at my club, a department of one. You know, I work with so many companies and vendors behind the scenes that get me to where I am. Ed Heil [00:07:55] How do you do it? I mean, you're you're a team of one. And yet, I mean, there are so many things. How do you determine, you know, what to implement? When is there and is there, an approach to that that you've seen that works across the board, or how do you advise people in that way? Melissa Hansen [00:08:13] I would definitely say, you know, [00:08:14]focus on on one thing at a time and, you know, get that under your belt for, you know, six months or so. For example, I like to I love to connect with other, you know, experts in the industry and see, you know, especially technology gurus and see what's working for them. [16.3s] And, one of the things that had come about for me about a year ago, was implementing this online chat on the website, and I was like, no way, no way am I going to implement this live chat where basically I have to respond when a right away when anyone asks me a question like, I'm doing a million things, I'm walking around the building, I'm part of tournaments, how will I be able to do that? But I decided, you know what? I'm going to give it a go. And worst case scenario, we can turn it off. And that has been one of the biggest tools in my toolbox over the past year. Literally converting members at $100,000, memberships that have never stepped foot in the club through chat, through live chat. Ed Heil [00:09:18] Interesting. So just to break that down a little bit, I mean, "A" that's awesome. That's amazing. Just maybe how do you manage it like, you know, do you have like notifications going to your phone and while you're walking around you like how does that work? Melissa Hansen [00:09:36] Exactly. So the notifications go to your phone. We always have our phones next to us. I mean, that's just how it is. So it comes in just like a text message. We can toggle it off. So when I'm heading home and getting ready for my son's baseball game, you know, I'm not listening to or replying to online chat, so I toggle it off, you know, in the evening or when I'm not available. And that's, I think, the biggest misconception that I wasn't aware of before I dove into it. But when I am available, when I am making my phone or I am next to my computer, it's just been such a phenomenal resource for us. Ed Heil [00:10:11] So, this is a little bit of a tangent, and if you'll just bear with me a little bit, I'm I'm really interested to hear your perspective on that because, you know, go back five years ago and the idea of using chat in a private club just felt really cold and informal. And why would you do that? And there I'm sure you talked to membership directors who might say, I would rather try to go for that tour and bring them in, and that's going to be a barrier like it seems. Count. Well, I get it. And yet it probably feels very counter intuitive to a lot of membership directors who prefer to, you know. Have people come on site for a tour? Melissa Hansen [00:10:52] Definitely. I mean, [00:10:53]I think at the end of the day, Ed, like as membership professionals, we need to be the face of our club, okay. We, you know, biggest pet peeve of mine that I posted on LinkedIn recently is when I go to the membership pages of these club websites and it's just like, contact our membership department. Who am I contacting? You know, I want to see what the membership professional looks like. I want to know their name. You know, I want to buy one them. I want to, you know, this is about to be my second family. I'm joining a club. This is my lifestyle. I want to connect with someone. And so I truly feel that that the online chat has just allowed me another opportunity to put my face in front of my club and just allow me to, to connect with these prospects. [44.4s] Ed Heil [00:11:39] What is the in your opinion? What is that mind shift of, the membership, maybe not the membership professional. It might be the general manager, it might be the board members. But what is a shift that needs to occur to say, hey, this website, I will see if I try to turn this away when people come to learn more about us, this is not about what information we want to share. It's really about how can you provide that visitor the information they're looking for? You know what I mean? It's, I think historically, for a lot of clubs, there's been this idea of like, no, no, no, we're very exclusive. If you want to come, you'll play by our rules. Rather than saying, how do we make it easier for people to learn more about what club life is like at our club? Melissa Hansen [00:12:38] That is so good. [00:12:40]I feel like that that that has been such a shift. And if you're not shifting with the change, of that kind of vibe at your club, I think that you are missing out. [11.0s] I think that if you just take, for example, the last time you went to purchase a card, you know, which is a high end purchase. You were doing your research online before you ever stepped foot into XYZ dealership. And I just remember the last time that I was doing it, I had narrowed down my search to to three different cars, and it was the online chat and the sales person that was following up with me that was answering my specific questions about if this would be the right vehicle for my family. That ultimately swayed me to purchase that vehicle over the other that were in my top three, and I feel like it is so similar in the private club journey. At the end of the day, our buyers are all in a different point of their buying journey, right? Some of them are just starting this journey. They might be, you know, becoming a member of a club for the very first time. And they just might want to collect some information. Some of them might be ready to schedule a tour, but, you know, they've been a member of a private club. Maybe they've played here as a guest. They're ready to schedule a tour in their, you know, a little bit more of a hot lead, and some of them might be able to, to purchase right away. And I just think that you as a club and you as a, you know, membership professional, you truly need to be able to meet them wherever they are in their journey. Ed Heil [00:14:16] Yeah. And this idea that, because you are accessible and because you make it easy for someone to learn about your club doesn't mean that you can't be exclusive like this whole idea, right? It is as a as a club, you can still be just as selective or selective as you choose to be about the members that become members of the club. Melissa Hansen [00:14:40] Absolutely. Absolutely. Ed Heil [00:14:42] I want to go back, though, to, something that we were talking about a couple of minutes ago. We went off on a tangent, which is the implementation, and we're talking about the fact that you don't necessarily have to do everything at once. If you're a membership director looking to implement change. You picked certain things. And that's when we started talking about chat and using chat bots. And so with that, how do you in your experience and conversations you have, how do you recommend membership directors approach those conversations with their GM or, you know, who's also reporting to a board that in some cases want things to happen really fast. And as we all know, board members and committee members, you know, different clubs will, you know, fly off the handle with an idea and say, hey, we should do this. We should do this. How does a membership director in this day and age manage that kind of stuff while trying to set priorities? Melissa Hansen [00:15:46] Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely tough because like you're saying, everyone comes kind of like from a their personal side of it, right? That they think that this would this is the next best thing that they should implement. But at the end of the day, all of our clubs, we have budgets, right. We most of us have marketing budgets. And oftentimes some of the things that we're looking to implement may not have been budgeted for that year. And it might be something that we have to plan for, for the future. You know, I think, Ed, I know that you are such a huge advocate for, for CRM systems. And I know that you and I, we use we're both lovers of HubSpot. But I would say that that is like, the number one mistake that I see in clubs is the lack of utilization of a, of a good CRM system, because if you're starting with a good CRM system and you are able to start to report these different tactics that you are implementing these different marketing tactics, then you can go to your board and say, you know, we implemented this gated content piece and we received this many qualified leads and this many qualified leads ended up turning to this many sales. But without having the backbone of a something like a CRM system, I really think you're missing the boat on on all things marketing. Ed Heil [00:17:07] Yeah. So that idea of being able to say to whether it's your GM or whether it's, committee chair or something like that, to be able to say, hey, we're actually tracking this, we're implementing this part, we're tracking the results, and then we'll be able to make better decisions about other things. But right now, this is what we're focusing on. And we have real data as opposed to just like chasing down 10 million things, not tracking a darn thing and going, I don't know what I'm doing. You know, it's because even if you do kind of know what you're doing without good data, it's hard to it's hard to go to anyone with any real explanation. Melissa Hansen [00:17:45] Exactly. I mean, I think at the end of the day, those are what the boards and committees are looking for. They want the data. You know, if you're going to be spending 5 to $10,000 on some sort of campaign or implementing something new or a new website or or whatever it is, we need the numbers to be able to justify that and to back that up. Ed Heil [00:18:05] Let's go down the, the road where you started with HubSpot. And yes, you know, in full disclosure, we are HubSpot partners, and I know you're a, user as well, but I think you from a bigger, more broad perspective of technology and we, you know, talking about chatbot, it's the same thing. And, and as we discuss membership directors, more and more are is being asked of them in their roles. And I know that a membership director I spoke with recently, I just said, if you leverage more technology, it will help you be more efficient in your job. And yet that seems to be you know what always blows me away, Melissa, is that there are so many board members who are successful business people probably use these tools, but they don't look at their club and say, how do we become more efficient that way? But I mean, that's a huge part of this, isn't it? Melissa Hansen [00:18:55] Definitely. I mean, I definitely have to say that I think the clubs are a little bit behind the times when it comes to implementing. I mean, don't you agree when it comes to. Totally. Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I just think it's, essential. I, I'm a HubSpot user. I spend my day in HubSpot. I think, you know, one of the things I love most is that, you know, all of the clubs were on board now with getting these, online inquiries. And. Right, so our online inquiries are what we live for. Those are prospective members. That's how everything gets started. But so oftentimes we go through a process of, you know, providing them with the information, potentially getting them in for a tour. And then there's not really, too much follow up after that. And again, as a department of one or even two and just having your hand in so many different things, you need to be able to rely on tools like that to assist you. And, you know, these different touch points that that our prospective members need. Ed Heil [00:19:59] How important do you think it is that membership directors today are, you know, have a big part of them that's kind of like a salesperson. I mean, they've always been kind of like salesperson, right? But like to be able to use some of these tools is also. You know. Melissa Hansen [00:20:15] Yeah. I mean it's huge. I at the end of the day. I always say we are the storytellers. We are the cheerleaders. And and that that's what turns into our sales. And if we, we can bring our prospective members to the club when it is, you know, the most vibrant and the most happening, and we can show them, you know, what they're missing out on. If they don't join that, at the end of the day, it is what's really going to create that sale. Ed Heil [00:20:41] How have you seen? Just in your, there are a lot of a lot of people out there that, you know, different people who have campaigns for membership drives and things like that. How have you been able to see this convergence of, like, member referrals and technology and social media and digital like, have you been able to see them come together? And I'll just give you a little bit more texture around it, which is the, use of social media, you know, and, do you I mean, do they all do they interact differently, today than they used to? Me. Member referrals have always been a great source for new member prospects. But how do you see all those things aiding that? You know how that works today. You know what I mean? Melissa Hansen [00:21:28] Yeah, definitely. You know, social media is one of my, my favorite things to talk about. And there's just so many clubs that have jumped on board with it and they get it. And I think that now that user generated content. So you've got your members, they are at the club, they are enjoying the club with their family, their friends, and they start to post their pictures and tag the club. And now the club can share that. Now it's not so much becoming, you know, the club selling to somebody. We're just simply sharing the amazing time that our members are having at the club. And we have just seen that that sharing of that, you know, that user generated content really, really, really thrive, as far as, member referrals go, I actually got a DM from a prospective member on Instagram the other day, and, I had posted something about the reciprocals that, that we enjoy, that we enjoy in Southwest Florida in the summertime, and that the reciprocal access was really what got that prospective member, you know, off being on the edge. And she said, oh, what do you mean? The, you know, reciprocals that, that you guys have. And and she's like, I'm a friend of Mr. and Mrs. Jones and I have been following the club for so long now. We've really been thinking that we want to join. But I didn't know about this program. And she's like, can you tell me about this? And I did. We signed her up. Ed Heil [00:22:58] How do you feel about the clubs that want to lock down the social media and have for members only? Melissa Hansen [00:23:05] I'm not. I'm not a fan of that. Yeah, I get that. [00:23:10]That's honestly the number one question that I, that I get and I get the exclusivity, I get being private again. Our club, we are a waitlisted club. You know, I understand all of that, but I think that everyone wants a bit of a peek inside. Everyone you know, needs to create that. That fear of missing out. And it you don't have to be posting every day. As long as you come up with some sort of schedule and you are consistent with that schedule, people want a little bit of a peek inside. I think. [32.2s] Ed Heil [00:23:43] You know, it's funny because, I did, you know, look at your website. There's a little bit of, you know, you talk a little bit about FOMO, fear of missing out for a lot of people. You just kind of like a joke. Oh, you have bad FOMO. So, yeah, I do, but it is such an important part of, you know, of referrals and things like that. Is it? How is it different today? It seems like FOMO in general for people you know, is so much more intense today, you know, than when it was before social media. You know, it's like you might hear someone on a trip, but now it's like you see them on the trip where they went, where they go to eat, how much fun they're having. Melissa Hansen [00:24:25] I'm booking my kids there. Ed Heil [00:24:27] Yeah, exactly. How real is that, do you think in, you know, as a membership director and really trying to create that, especially if you're not on a waitlist, if you are trying to create, you know, maybe a different narrative about your club? I'm guessing you probably all about that. Melissa Hansen [00:24:43] Yeah, [00:24:44]I'm definitely all about FOMO is real. I mean, it is a real thing. It's a bit scary. I think the way that it's taken off so much, you know, with social media over the past couple of years. But, you know, if, if when you see your friends and your family having fun, it's something with inside our souls that we want to be part of that too. And we see it a lot, you know, especially with the clubs that that are family clubs. [29.7s] And, you know, you've got the families that are posting the, fathered out their dances or the Taylor Swift event, which has been so popular around the country. And, you know, if you're not part of that, then you feel like your, your children aren't getting the experience that you want them to have. Ed Heil [00:25:33] Yeah, for sure. And that and that's important to parents, right. What are you, in the conversations that you have with your students and people you're networking with, what are the biggest challenges membership directors are facing today? Do you think. Melissa Hansen [00:25:49] It's a great question? [00:25:51]So I would say the biggest challenge is definitely, the challenge of onboarding their new members. That's become a really hot topic, over the past couple of years, because what we saw in the membership directors role is that everybody was doing such a great job, you know, replying to prospective members, getting them in for the tour and then making that sale. But then we were really missing the mark on integrating that member into the club 100%. And we just really realized that, you know, proper programming needs to be in place, proper communication and, you know, continuing to have, you know, funnels of communication that are set up, you know, at least for the first 90 days to six months. [43.5s] But getting that member integrated in the club, it's a challenge, especially if you are a department of one. You know, I think a lot of times the membership director might be the cheerleader, but the whole entire team in the club might not all be on board as much as they are. So I think, you know, integrating that new member for, for retention, you know, purposes is a challenge. Ed Heil [00:26:58] I mean, that's a big cost, right? Without it, it's, you know, it could make retention. You could maybe not necessarily more difficult, but there's there's a gap now in their, in their experience. Is that right? Melissa Hansen [00:27:11] Definitely. I mean, you know, we have to be able to justify those dues that we're spending every year. Ed Heil [00:27:18] Yeah, absolutely. Just, I'd love to get your thoughts on, what you see as being some of the most important skills that a membership director has today, knowing that, like, hey, you might be listening to this podcast, and if you're a GM, maybe your membership director is like, I shouldn't say this like, but hasn't had the experience that we're talking about, but you believe in them and you want to develop them. Or maybe you're a membership director listening to this and gosh, I've never I don't, you know, they're Google and CRM to see what that stands for. What do you what are the most important skills do you think that a membership director should have in this job to be successful? Melissa Hansen [00:28:00] Yeah, definitely. I think, you know, the ability to adapt and grow is the number one most important thing when it comes to this role. And if you don't know what a CRM system you are googling it, that is 100% okay. It's okay, you know, to start somewhere. And I think, being being an innovator, you know, being willing to learn and there's different ways that we can learn. I feel like, you know, there's so many online tools now. There's conferences, but we can simply learn from, you know, reaching out to our colleagues and just going to lunch with them and seeing what they're doing at their club. And I think that, you know, you and I were together recently, at the conference at Bonita Bay and I think, you know, just going there and seeing how they do things. I brought so many ideas back to my club. But I have to continue to be in that innovative mindset and be the cheerleader that wants to do that when everybody's ready to, you know, leave for vacation and in the off season. So I would say, you know, definitely those are skills that, that you need to portray in the role. Ed Heil [00:29:09] Yeah. So much about that adaptability, right. I mean, if you don't have a willingness to learn and to grow and like, I think what you're seeing as well with the CRM stuff, it's like and being okay, saying, I don't know that today, but I'm going to learn it. That's, you know, that's such a huge part of it because a lot of those people are still learning, you know, and, and and that's totally fine. Melissa Hansen [00:29:31] I'm still learning. Ed Heil [00:29:33] We all are. Right? I mean, hey, one of our core values is driven to mastery. And it's that idea that you're always learning and just, you know, always feel like it's okay if you don't know it. As long as you have that drive to learn and drive to master it, then that's a good thing. How if for a word, if you just think about, you know, club leaders in general, what would you ask of them to to keep in mind as it relates to, you know, development of their people and, you know, because, hey, education costs money. Networking, where so many people in your world learn it just from talking to other membership directors. What would your message be to club leaders who are a little bit reticent to maybe invest in some of the whether it's technology or training for people, why is it so important, do you think? Melissa Hansen [00:30:27] I think investing in your people, first and foremost, is the most important thing. Before you're doing the technology or any of that, invest in your people and and give them the opportunity to learn and grow from the people that are doing it right. You know, again, just such an advocate of continuing education and going to these conferences, like you mentioned, PCMA, CMAA, you know, I'm attending the inbound conference by HubSpot, which I, I learned so much from, but giving them that opportunity to get out side of the club, you know, expand their mindset. And then, most importantly, take these ideas, ask the membership professional to come back to your staff meeting. And, you know, we expect you to present to us five things that you think that we should implement at the club. And let's all talk to that, you know, talk about them as a whole and as a team. That I just think is is key. That's, that's the most important thing. And then just being in that spot where you have management and you have your board supporting your growth as an employee, that is just everything. Ed Heil [00:31:40] Yeah. And if the club doesn't get behind it, invest in yourself, right. Invest in your own career and development as a professional. Melissa Hansen [00:31:47] Definitely. Ed Heil [00:31:48] Yeah. Melissa, this is great. How can people learn more about you and your work as a consultant? Melissa Hansen [00:31:54] Yeah, they can certainly go to my website, which is just Melissahansen.com. I'm really loud on LinkedIn. Melissa Hanson and, also, anybody can feel free to email me, Melissa@melissahansen.com. Ed Heil [00:32:11] Awesome. Melissa, thanks so much for spending time with me today and sharing your perspective. And I know it's so valuable for. For the people that you already work with, and hopefully there's some people out there that will, that will reach out as well. And, and, and look to you for more advice. Melissa Hansen [00:32:26] I appreciate you and thank you for the time. Ed Heil [00:32:29] All right, Melissa, we'll see you soon. Melissa Hansen [00:32:31] All right. Sounds good. Ed Heil [00:32:36] And thank you for listening. If you find this podcast helpful. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep crushing your club marketing.…
 
The words Selling and Private Club Membership typically do not go hand-in-hand. In fact, most Membership Directors, wouldn’t be caught dead saying they “sell private club memberships”. People sell timeshare properties and vacation packages, but not private club memberships. Or do they? Sales trainer and consultant and founder of Master Connection Associates, Cindy Novotny, is with me in this episode to talk about SALES processes that every club should implement to create long term success. Episode Highlights 4:08 - How sales and marketing applies to the private clube and hospitality industries. 5:42 - The impact of the pandemic on private clubs 7:20 - Now is the time to train your team 9:51 - You're selling experiences 15:08 - Where clubs are struggling today with their sales and marketing 17:44 - Where to start with training your team 19:46 - Sales is no longer a bad word in the hospitality industry 22:21 - Selling is not cold calling 25:45 - The pandemic made some club leaders "cocky" 28:43 - The best follow up methods for prospects 33:07 - Phone calls or email follow ups? Ed Heil [00:00:00] You are listening to Crushing Club Marketing, a podcast for progressive club leaders ready to increase their club's revenue. Time for change begins right now. Ed Heil [00:00:13] The word selling, and private club membership typically don't go hand in hand. In fact, most membership directors wouldn't be caught dead saying they sell private club memberships. People sell timeshare properties and vacation packages, but not private club memberships. Or do they? Sales trainer and consultant and founder of Master Connection Associates, Cindy Novotny is with me in this episode to talk about sales processes that every club should implement to create long term success. Ed Heil [00:00:47] Thanks for joining me today. As I mentioned in the intro, you usually will not hear membership professionals in the private club industry talk about quote unquote selling memberships. It sounds tacky. It lowers perceived value, and the stature of the club is overall cheapened when you use words like that. Typically when you're talking about new member acquisition. But there's a difference between saying you sell club memberships and having proven sales processes in place to drive new member inquiries. So with 50% of the clubs in the country enjoying a new member waitlist. Why does this matter? You might ask yourself, well, we know it won't last forever, right? And with most clubs financially stable today, now is the time to invest. And we know that most would agree with this, especially the healthy clubs, because they're making considerable capital improvements to increase the value of the club and make it, and to invest more in their club. So clubs have all been through the ups and downs of the economy with rising and falling membership initiation fees. And you know that that's not good for your brand. But by building strong processes, investing in technology to improve efficiency and reporting, and even redefining the role of the membership team and membership director, your club can be better equipped to weather the storm that you know is coming. Ed Heil [00:02:17] So Cindy Novotny joins me in this episode as we dive into some of the issues clubs have and some recommendations she has for club leaders. Now, she is bold, she's direct, and she looks at the industry extremely realistically from a business and sales perspective, which in this day and age, it's changed so much through the years with technology and how people shop and how people buy. So we caught up earlier this year, and I was able to pin her down for a half hour while she is traveling the globe, and we had this conversation. Cindy, thanks so much for joining us today. Cindy Novotny [00:02:51] Absolutely. I am thrilled to be with you. This is fantastic. Ed Heil [00:02:55] Well my gosh. All right. So if you're listening to this you don't know how long. I mean it's been years. I think it was actually pre-pandemic when we were you know, I was, you know, talking to you and then to lefty and then we ran into each other at PCMA in Savannah. Yes, I think a year and a half ago or something like that. So, man, I'm just glad to catch up with you finally. Cindy Novotny [00:03:16] Absolutely. I mean, I just I think everything you're doing is so great. And, the fact that I am such a road warrior living on the road, jumping from place to place, I'm so glad we have this opportunity. Ed Heil [00:03:28] The road warriors and understatement. I think you would probably agree for the way. The way it's been going for you. So. Well, let's jump into it. You know, for for the listener who maybe hasn't had the opportunity to be part of your training or heard you speak, let's help help people understand the connection between, you know, the hospitality industry. And if you think about that from the perspective of like hotels, resorts and things like that, private clubs are also very much part of the hospitality industry. But how do you see those, the two worlds, maybe if you think about hotels, resorts and that sort of part of hospitality connecting from a sales and marketing perspective or otherwise with private clubs? Cindy Novotny [00:04:08] Well, it's huge. And I, I grew up in an industry that was I worked for private dining clubs, in Chicago, in New York and at a very young age learning, oh, wow, this is kind of cool. And people pay a membership to just come and have dinner. And then I recognize that it's really all about the experience, and it's all about what somebody wants to feel like. Then, as I continued in the hospitality industry, crossing over into hotels and resorts and now private engagement and jets, we do a lot of work, as you know, in private clubs on sales, training and sometimes sales is like, oh, well, we don't have to sell because we're a private club and you know everybody. We've got a list of people waiting to get in. And I always back up and say, yeah, you have a list of people waiting to get in right now. But there was a time when you were fighting to get members because we compete with so many other experiences. It's not just like we're competing private club to private club, we're competing private club membership to a second home or a yacht or something like that. Ed Heil [00:05:13] Let's talk about that. And, because I'm, I'm interested first in your take on that change, that shift in, in what you're seeing out there from the recognition of your clients as it relates to, hey, we you know, we can't just wait for people to walk in the door. We actually have to have more of a process. Are you seeing just how much greater awareness are you seeing around that? Or is it is it been slow, is have been fast, especially with the pandemic being so good for so many clubs? Cindy Novotny [00:05:42] Yeah. I mean, as I say, I can't even say the word C-O-V-I-D. Right? I cannot. But the one thing there was two things that happened. One is zooms and calls and teams. That's now status normal. When you talk to clients, getting them on a call face to face. Okay. That's because of the pandemic. The second is golf. Even golf clubs because we work with lots of golf clubs. Prior to the pandemic, the younger generation, it was dipping down. They weren't. It's like it's I don't want to go to my dad's club and I don't want to get married at my grandpa's club. And there was a lot of that kind of slowdown. And what I saw happen is that even I belong to a private club in Codo de Caza in California, and then also in Cedar Rapids, a private club. But I saw all of a sudden, like, outdoors. Oh my gosh, I don't want to be like, I don't want to be held back. I can't do things where private clubs were giving people the ability to get out on the golf courses, the fresh air, play tennis, pickleball, all these things. And because the private dining there was sometimes less. It was it like jams of people. So now that has taken the trajectory right up. I mean, that that's why so many people are seeing waiting list to get into those clubs, right? Ed Heil [00:07:02] You know, in many ways, because of this lack of maybe pressure, it seems like this is the time for private clubs. If they're thinking they they need to get their membership directors trained and sales that this is the time to do that. Cindy Novotny [00:07:20] Oh right. And and by the way, if you can sell, you'll always have a job. Let me just say that. All right. Transactional order taking will be replaced is being replaced by AI. So if you're just sitting back and managing your membership, what are you doing? I mean, there's a there's a new member behind every member. There's a new event, a new party, a corporate event. There's so much for that incremental revenue into a club where they can have their company sponsor dinners. And so you have to work your existing membership to be able to get that. But more importantly is there's a lot of competition now. There are private hotels, membership only. There are so many more private city clubs, so many more private bars and fun, cool places that unless you're a member, you can't even get in. You've got to know somebody who knows somebody. And because of that, that is starting to dilute some of the traditional clubs where people go, you know what? I'm not going to join. I'm not going to be a member of this club anymore because I actually don't live in the city anymore. I moved out to the suburbs. So I'm, I'm, I'm going to get rid of being a part of this athletic club or this dining club, and I'm going to move out to the suburbs. Secondly, I'm going to rid of my golf membership because do we really need that is a lot of money. I mean, you know, we have to force ourselves to make sure we every quarter get our dining, you know, minimum. Right. And so what happens is a lot of people have that same thought. So if you're not working it to keep that pipeline full, the people just like me now, we haven't canceled our club. But I could say, you know what, I don't even. Why do I even bother? So that's why you have to keep your grit, your nose to the grindstone, a new one, a new one, a new one all the time. Even those that have waiting lists. Ed Heil [00:09:12] Yeah. Interesting. You know. Yeah. There's so many things in there. Let's let's talk about the, part one. Part of it is just the competition. And you talked about this before, and I've heard other people in other podcasts, interviews that people I've talked to that have said, if you're thinking of your competition as the club down the street, you're missing it. And then, you know, three different people have said, look at what the hospitality industry is doing. If you want to see how to really enhance your presence online, if you really want to see how to, sell experiences, look at what resorts are doing and how they positioned themselves. How do you feel about that? Cindy Novotny [00:09:51] Oh, it's all about that. And most of the clubs that I even work in their social media presence is sad. Sad, I mean, and I think to myself, well, they and they say things like, well we can't really show a members event. I go, you're not showing the member and you're not giving the member's name, but you can show the setup because it's like what we've done. But a backing up to that. You know, I look at hospitality as an experience, hence why 40% of our business is outside of the hotel, club, private dining industry, automotive, you know, medical. And you think, well, how does hospitality relate? Because everyone in business today wants an experience. Okay. Even if you're going to a hospital, you know, it's not the clinical side that we're not messing with. But you don't want to go and feel you're already nervous. You want your your. Registration to get into the hospital. Be nice. You want the billing. So if you think about clubs, private clubs. All right. It's like if you really want to go to a tennis match or a football game because you're so in to the game, to the techniques and to what, you'll watch it from your massive screen at home. Okay, that's it. But if you love the experience of going to a football or a hockey game or a tennis match, you don't want to watch it from your sofa. You want to be in those stands and eating that Dodger Dog and having fun and doing what you do. And that's like a club. If I want to go to a fine dining restaurant, there is 1,000,000 and 1 Michelin star over the top. Cool chefs. I can go anywhere and edit everybody open to the public. We all can go. Ed Heil [00:11:39] Yeah. Cindy Novotny [00:11:39] But if you want an experience where they actually know you and they call you by name, and they you bring guests and they, they make your guests feel very special. And there's always that certain thing that's not in the menu, but they make for you. And there's that certain cocktail that they know you like and they make it for you. That is an experience. Okay. Same thing with golf. So, you know, my husband's a big golfer, but he golfs at a public course that is small, but they make you feel like a member because there's very few people and it's gorgeous overlooking Lake Michigan. And he actually at time says, you know, I actually like it here better than even some of the private clubs I'm at. Right. Because so if it's just the game, I can get it anywhere. But the club makes it an experience and you have to be trained to know how to do that. And your social media presence, your online presence has to portray that. Ed Heil [00:12:37] Awesome. So I mean, what I'm hearing you say, well, let me ask. Yes, that's a shift, right? Because there's still a lot of private clubs that believe they're selling the exclusivity. Like you get you get to be a member of this exclusive group. But I mean, what I'm hearing you say is really in many ways, that's not enough anymore. It's not enough to just say we're exclusive. You can't get in now. Cindy Novotny [00:13:03] And by the way. That's okay. But not everyone enjoys that tag line. I love exclusivity all the time too. I like, you know, I'm in. You know, I travel all the time. So you know, obviously United Club is for anybody that wants to pay their money. But because I'm global service and I'm global service for life, I've flown 10 million miles. Even when those clubs, as you know, when you travel, if they're too busy, they start stopping people, people that have paid for a membership but not me. I show my ticket, it says Global Service. I'm let right in. Yeah, I board the plane first. I love the exclusivity of that feel, but. I can also fly another airline and get to the same destination, right? The word exclusivity has got to be in combination with experience, and some of the big, big country club groups have lost their edge. They've got they've taken a private, kind of more intimate experience with all the big social memberships, which I'm all about builds your business. But what they do is they fail to forget, oh, you're actually a golf member. You actually pay five times more than what this social member pays, right? Used to be that there's private like at our club. And I have no problem saying this out loud because it's my club. You know, we're golf members, all right? We pay way more money, and we paid way more investment to get into that separate golf bathrooms for us. When we're dining, we go only club members only now. They could care less. Everybody's in there. Doesn't matter. That takes exclusivity and destroys the experience. Ed Heil [00:14:50] Yeah. Interesting. That's a really interesting take on that that that differentiation there. What are the most common things that you see, maybe the most common issues that you're seeing in your work and your consulting membership teams struggle with today? You know, especially as it relates to some of this stuff, you know? Cindy Novotny [00:15:08] Right. First of all, lack of training. They they promote somebody who is young working there. And I love youth, believe me. But, you know, we have to be trained and be developed. So they they just say, oh, well, you were really good. You worked your summers while you were at school and now, you know, you were like a restaurant manager. Would you like to be a membership director? Would you like to. And then bingo. Put them in it. Then they have no idea. They don't know how to reach out, how to talk to an existing member. They're Monday through Friday, 9 to 5 hours. So I'm not even kidding. Some of them. I mean, it's hilarious. Okay. And I'll say to him, you know, if there's a big event going on, a membership event for members, you need to be there and talk to the members and who else they know and and ask about what kind of events they like, because it's not just about the new, getting new members. It's about enhancing what the current members really like. Sometimes we're putting on things for our members that no one cares about. They're like, I don't even like, why? Why are you doing that? And yet some of the things have to be continued to be changed because the age difference, the youth, the people that don't want that, they don't want that, you know, Thursday night card game, they might want a game night for all families of all ages and things. So I think the biggest thing I see is lack of knowledge of the industry, lack of training, lack of how to actually use online presence, social media to find business. Right. How to follow up. We do a lot of mystery shops, of private clubs where we call inquiring about membership and it's like hilarious. Okay, we'll send you out a packet. And by the way, there's 50 people. There's 50 people on the waiting list. All right. So we'll just email and no asking questions. What would we be interested in. That's what I see is one of the the biggest problems. Ed Heil [00:16:59] Yeah. So the training thing is seems like a big thing because, you know, I mean, I think of this from the terms of it's hard to find good people in a lot of industries in the club industry and hospitality I know has struggled with that as well. So let's just say you do have these people who are eager enough, but they really have no training at all, is there? And this is probably a softball for you, but I am kind of interested because it can be a deterrent for a decision maker general manager. But, to invest in, you know, cash. What's it going to cost me to train this person? Right. So where do you start? Where do you start? With someone who just doesn't, you know, an employee who's like, yeah, I'll try that. I think I could do that. Like, how do you start training? Cindy Novotny [00:17:44] So my answer to that is simple. I say to every GM, even the equity, clubs. And you know, when I deal with boards, I'll say, you know, if you say, why should I invest? What if they leave, I go, what happens when you don't invest in training and they stay? And that is the number one biggest issue. And sometimes the turnover could be like they come in, they want to make a name for themselves. Well, remember a majority of those clubs are not looking for profit. So some of them are trying to deliver excellence. Now I happen to work with some clubs like that are phenomenal like El Niguel in Southern California. Unbelievable. They're, you know, head of membership in their general manager and what they do monthly learnings with every single employee training reading books like Unreasonable Hospitality book clubs. I speak probably like once a quarter with them. They are so invested in training and the the actual members members talk about it all the time. I cannot believe how well versed the staff is, and some of them have been there for ten, 15, 20 years. And you and I both know I love to have people stick around if they get continue training. I don't want you sticking around because it's just an easy gig, right? And that's the difference. Ed Heil [00:19:09] Yeah. It's like the the old line is the only thing worse than an employee, who quits as an employee, who quits and stays home. Right? Yeah, it is a it's a hard thing though, you know, I mean, in you're you're seeing more of a shift probably every day than, you know, some of the people that I speak with. But, you know, in our work, we're trying to help people understand the value of marketing, the value of doing things in a different way from an online presence and things like that. Sales and marketing are just words that, you know, historically haven't been really embraced. By private club. So, I mean, are you seeing that change? Cindy Novotny [00:19:46] You know, I'm seeing that change. Oh, hugely. I mean, first of all, I am a sales trainer, sales service and leadership. So even law firms that I work with, even hospitals. But before it, like up until like ten, 15 years ago, I'd be like, well, the law firms we don't sell. Why would we don't sell? Well, yeah you do, because new business development. How do you build your book of business? How do you go from being a young associate to being a managing partner? You have to know how to sell. You don't think sales is a bad word? Private clubs that have that arrogance, that think, oh, well, we're just so good. Everyone wants to join until they start losing members and when they lose members or they lose the spending. Okay. Because it's not just their quarterly spending that they have to do. Depending on the kind of membership you have when you start losing every event, every banquet, every wedding. All of this to all the other unbelievable venues. You are hurting the club. We have to invest the money back to keep the club going. How do you do that if you don't have any new business coming in? We have to make sure we're upgrading the golf courses. We're bringing in better staff. We're hiring a better golf pro. How do you do that? If you don't have that new money coming in to reinvest in the club? So whether you're looking for profit or no profit doesn't really matter. You need new business coming in. So marketing and sales to me have always been two separate things. I believe that marketing has to create the story, has to put that out and make sure the story resonates. Sales has to tell the story. So salespeople have to take what marketing puts out. Marketing, you know, does all of their online presence, all of their work, all of their messaging. Then the salespeople, the membership director has to sell that story. So instead of storytelling, I call it story selling. Ed Heil [00:21:45] There you go. I like that. Although, the name of our company would contradict that a little bit, but I guess I would say the. Well, let's talk about that because, you know, selling, if you are a general manager of a certain age or a certain vintage, or anyone in the club industry of a certain vintage, you think of selling in a certain way. How has selling changed? You talk about story selling. What does that mean, though? I mean, people aren't cold calling, you know, people are, you know, direct mail is, you know, is more difficult. What do you like? What do you see? Cindy Novotny [00:22:21] Well, first of all, I believe and our statistics that we use, I'll find all this stuff as you do. I believe that about 60, over 65% of most decisions in any business are made based on a referral. I would never suggest a cold call as long as I live. I do believe that if you're working your existing members, there's a customer behind every guest, customer behind every member, a customer at every wedding. There's new members, but at every event it's there is so much business, but we aren't working our own members and there's a finesse to that. You're not like my club. I got just I got disgusted with how they did it. Like table in that lobby. When you walk in with all this wedding paraphernalia, I said, guys, and I don't even train for them. I said, as a member, I'm a golf paying member. I said, this looks so tacky. It looks like I'm walking into, you know, four star, three star hotel. You shouldn't even. Where's your membership? Where's your person that handles special events? Why aren't you working? Why are they walking around? You know, turnover in turnover and restaurant managers. At the end of the day, the vintage GM can't wear that. It worked for that. I think the vintage GM has had a wakeup call. And the wake up call has come from the board of directors, from the corporate groups that own those, the Club Corps of the world, right? Even some of the Sterlings, the smaller ones that have less of we need more profit. We need more of this because we're building, we're investing. So when you look at the profitability of some of these clubs, they are being looked at. So a vintage just walk around and have a cocktail with the members, which I'm all about a general manager being all about that, hanging out, chatting, but not investing with that membership director to make sure they know how to go out and work the local community. Volunteer, be involved. That is exactly where they're starting to wake up, because they recognize there's no other way to do it. It's all based on referrals. Ed Heil [00:24:26] In the in the clubs that you have worked with and that you continue to work with. How many of the successful like really vibrant, healthy clubs have a general manager who has more of a business background or is business minded as opposed to just straight F&B? And I ask you that because so many general managers come up from that food and beverage side and they their, their business savvy might not really be there. What do you? Cindy Novotny [00:24:58] All of the successful clubs we're working with, they're all business savvy and they've come up through golf. They've come up to hotels. Lots of them come from hotels. They've come up through food and beverage, but not as much as they used to. Now it is all about, you know, the tournament business. It's all about, you know, that that the hospitality, hotel business, regional kind of executive directors, things like that. And every club we're working with that's successful has a GM that gets it. Hence why they're working with us. Ed Heil [00:25:30] Right. Yeah. Do you feel like the pandemic in the success I mean was it was very good for clubs. Oh yeah. Good clubs is very good. Did it give people a false sense of security or. Right or, you know, club leaders, a false sense of security, do you think? Cindy Novotny [00:25:45] Oh, for sure. And and not just a false sense of security. They got a little bit cocky like, oh, everybody now wants to golf. The year before that, we're running around teaching people how to get to the young people to get them excited about golfing. And I am not exaggerating. It was like the Tiger Woods movement back then, right? Got got the younger generation golfing. Okay. All right. That's done and done. So now you swing up and all of a sudden the younger generations like, I don't want to do that. It's not fast enough. I'm an adrenaline. I'm an adrenaline rush, you know, junkie. I like to go parasailing. And this. And I don't want to waste money on golfing. It takes too long. Boring. The pandemic only allowed people to really like it. Because you could be outside and with your friends, right. And that was, you know, after like, March, April, even our club, because it wasn't our club, but it was the neighbors that live. Some of the neighbors that lived around the golf courses were like calling. They should be out here. I mean, obviously, oh my God, I'm not going to catch Covid on the golf course. But the idea was the club didn't want to stop that. But that was only like two months and then you couldn't get a tee time and the membership and everybody saw that because the younger people and when I say younger, I'm talking 20's, 30's. Right. Sure. They couldn't get on a plane and fly to, you know, Australia and go to where they wanted to go to do the stuff they wanted to do. So they said, all right, we're going to let's enjoy the club. And then that's why, I mean, the rise of pickleball courts, okay. It used to be just for the vintage seniors. Then all of a sudden, you see, you use that. Yeah. Tennis tennis courts are coming down and like, oh, now we only have three tennis courts and four pickleball courts. And that was some of the younger. And so it did. But it to me it's really important that what goes up goes down. It is a mentality that all of a sudden now the revenge spending is back. Luxury travel is back, luxury goods are back. People are, you know, it's really all about spending money. We call it the revenge spending. And so you have to look and say you're membership. You don't you're not tied into a lifetime membership. So I can quit anytime I want. And that money goes away that day. So that's the sort of thing you can never rest on. Well, we're just very popular. Ed Heil [00:28:09] Right? Yeah. It won't last. Just a couple of tactical questions. What I see so often are membership directors that will have people inquiring, especially, you know, up north where we are. This is the time of year people start inquiring about memberships of clubs and there is no follow up. There is someone who fills out a form and it sits there and a lot of membership directors. It almost seems like they have this mentality like, well, if they're interested, they'll call again. Cindy Novotny [00:28:40] Oh, yes. Ed Heil [00:28:42] What's the deal with that? Cindy Novotny [00:28:43] Because they've not been trained. Okay. So we know that they go online, they fill things out. And again I mystery shop all these. I shop them online on their websites. It takes three, 4 or 5 days. No response. I call, they're out of the office. I'm too busy. Busy with what? Busy with what? You're not the golf pro. You're not the food and beverage director. What do you busy with? Okay, so the idea is they've got to be able to have a process in place to be able to catch those leads and follow up with them. And this is part of a daily job of a sales person that understands that. And then second, that they if I hear what they hear it a hundred times, what our GM doesn't want us to look like, we're hungry. Our GM doesn't want to follow up. Get over that too. Because when your GM leaves and you get some hotdog GM in there, there's going to ask you how many new members you brought in. You're going to be dead out of the water. Done. Over. So the follow up is that they just, I think, are lazy. They don't. It's like they sit around doing who knows what. And that is one of the biggest issues today with which lots of hospitality industry companies. But in private clubs, it's it takes days for people to get back to you. And then if you check on a weekend, oh my god. And private clubs weekends are the hot ticket. And you ask someone like you the front desk. No one's ever sitting at any front desk any more to club, no matter how big it is. You go down to the restaurant and say to those I really like, I'm with my friends who belong to this club. I would really like to talk about joining and, okay, we'll give the name. Never Hear back. Now I'm going to give Elm credit again in Cedar Rapids, Iowa. All right. Unbelievable. Their membership director. All over it. I called and said, you know, I wanted a club where my husband could golf when we're there and that sort of thing. Janice. Okay, I'm going to give her name. I mean, Janice, so unbelievable. All right. She responded within an hour of the message. I left her because we're out of state. She gave me all the options and our farm is just over. You know, the membership of. You're a little bit farther. She worked it all out, got us all set up, invited us to dinner for our first dinner. And on them, my daughter. We. We've gone so many times. My daughter now is living at our farm and running that and works for us in the business. So we're have her and she doesn't want to go there all the time, but she can go now and dine or take her friend. Janice follows up with me. And by the way, I don't live there, by the way I'm there. Maybe, I don't know, 4 or 5 times a year. I see you on social media. She'll send me a text. She it. She makes me want to go there when I every time I come into town. That is somebody who understands what we call a luxury retail clientele. Ed Heil [00:31:41] Yeah. Cindy Novotny [00:31:42] That's that's it. And she gets. Ed Heil [00:31:44] I get I give you vintage. But now you've given me to client telling and revenge spending. Yes, I appreciate that. Thank you. The, this is something you're pretty passionate about. So, you know, from your perspective, what is the right process like when you think about that follow up that, you know, someone has inquired about membership, they filled out a form membership director, goes, oh, I got an email from someone, or, you know, the form someone submitted a form. What should that follow up look like? And how many times should a membership director follow up? I mean, what have you learned as far as the most you just best practices? Okay. Cindy Novotny [00:32:24] So I used to say it takes 6 to 7 times to touch a prospect before they ever become a customer. Jessica from our team, she last year tracked it. Okay. So from we get a ton of inquiries too. And I'll I'll just walk through my inquiry process. Sure. Which which I teach to all the clubs in the members. All right. The idea is she now tracked it and it's literally now 12 to 14 times. That could be over a year. Ed Heil [00:32:49] Wow. Cindy Novotny [00:32:50] For her to close a deal. Okay. So we know it takes time. You keep going until someone says, don't ever call me again. I'm not interested. I only was checking it out. Never want to hear for you, but that never happens. Okay. Ed Heil [00:33:04] Is that phone call and email or emails and phone? Cindy Novotny [00:33:07] We're all about phone calls. First follow up with email, so I'll kind of walk through it. Got it. So as an example, when you get an inquiry, whoever catches that, which should be the membership director, because very few of them have coordinators and all of that. But you get the inquiry. So and our company info@masterconnection.com comes to me. I'm a little busy. Just so you know, I get them off and I literally look at my phone to I'm constantly looking at my phone because when I'm speaking or training, I might be talking for an hour that another trainer gets up or I walk off stage, I check, so it's no longer than two hours max that I don't respond. And the inquiries come in. And this is what we teach everyone to do, I respond. Thank you so much for reaching out to Master Connection Associates, or thank you for reaching out to the Coto de Caza Country Club at Golf and Racqet Club. I am thrilled you thought of us. I and for me, I have copied Shelly Marlow, Jessica Baker, Carla. I assign it right then. I have copy to follow up with you. Now, if I'm the membership director. I am thrilled you thought of us. The secret sauce right now is what is a good time today or tomorrow for you and I to connect. Ed Heil [00:34:21] Interesting. Yeah. Cindy Novotny [00:34:22] And that's what we do. 100% of the time. Ed. Not 99. Not 89. 100% of the time we get an email back. Thanks so much for your prompt response. I every day I can count them. So appreciate it. I'm not going to be in the office or I don't have time to talk this week. Could we set up a call for Monday? Now for me, my account manager takes over and runs with that. For that membership director, it's like, absolutely. I will send an outlook invite. No phone tag here. I will send an outlook invite for the two of us to connect on Zoom or teams. That's the other thing you just said yourself. When we get on this, even though this isn't a video podcast, you and I are looking at each other right now. It creates more emotion, more rapport. Today's world allows us to send that. We send a Zoom invite to every client. We never have anyone say, I don't want to be on Zoom call. They all get on and then you can share your screen. You can show them the dining room. You can show them this. You can show them that every single time. Ed Heil [00:35:30] Wow. I love that. You know, one of the things I read early on in the pandemic was just how, you know, when more and more of this was happening. They said it builds trust. And notice when people don't turn on their camera. It makes you wonder. I know what's going on. Cindy Novotny [00:35:47] Exactly, exactly. Ed Heil [00:35:49] Yeah. Hey, I am so appreciative of your time today and for you taking, for you to take a few minutes and share some of your findings and your perspective, with the people who listen to this podcast. Anything you'd want to leave people with? As far as just some thoughts, people who are especially the general managers who are struggling with the shift, and sometimes it's dealing with boards who are of the vintage, you know, you know, board members who are more traditional. Is there anything that you would you would say to those people who are really trying to make a change, they just don't know the best way to go about becoming more of a sales operation. Cindy Novotny [00:36:29] So I do work with a lot of the boards of some of the private clubs we work with. So I speak at them, I come in, I talk, and I start out, and this is what every general manager should do is what are our objectives, what are our objectives of the board? Just private club. What do we want to do. You hear the same thing. We want to have unbelievable service. We want great food and beverage. We want restaurant quality food and beverage like we get at unbelievable restaurants all over the city, right? We want to have a the staff feel very well taken care of and feel very good because tips many times are brought are all they're all added on anyway, right. We also want to have profits so we can reinvest into the club. Like this. I hear it every time. And then I go, okay, and this is what every GM say. So how are we going to do that. All right. You got to spend money to make money. So the idea is if we want to have better food and beverage, we need a better chef. We might not have a decent chat. If we want better service, we need training. If we want to make money, we need membership directors that know how to sell for events, because some have a membership director and some have a special events manager, depending on the size. But a lot of times the membership director is doing all the special events too. So just depends. You have to be proactive to book the weddings, to book the graduations, to book the corporate events. You have to be proactive. You know who your members are if you're not reaching out to them. And that is called training. And if you don't invest, you're going to get exactly what you've been getting. Ed Heil [00:37:59] I love it. What a perfect way to end. Cindy Novotny [00:38:01] Excellent. Ed Heil [00:38:02] Cindy, thanks so much for your time today. Cindy Novotny [00:38:04] Thank you. Ed Heil [00:38:09] Thank you for listening. If you find this podcast helpful. Be sure to subscribe on iTunes, Google Play, Spotify, or wherever you get your podcasts. Until next time, keep crushing your club marketing.…
 
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